tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post7561594964062343560..comments2024-03-21T10:16:35.080-04:00Comments on Rituals of DisEnchantment: Pennies from HeavenUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger137125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-2691910277322239252007-12-21T13:38:00.000-05:002007-12-21T13:38:00.000-05:00Epi,You mentioned that "As to moderation, technica...Epi,<BR/><BR/>You mentioned that "As to moderation, technically it is unmoderated because you can post without approval. But of course if C decides you are persona non grata s/he can kick you off. With a moderated group, the group "owner" has to actively approve the post before it goes up."<BR/><BR/>Technically, not to offend, but I think this is splitting technical hairs. C has often removed posts he found objectionable after they posted. I don't see much difference between pre-moderation and post-moderation, it's still moderation. As to actively silencing certain people by placing them in read-only status or revoking their membership (even when it is necessary and totally called-for), I would describe that as moderation of a group whether or not it happens to include pre or post approval over message postings.<BR/><BR/>I'd be far more comfortable if that word "unmoderated" was removed from the exsy front page.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-15997388491581056462007-12-20T17:45:00.000-05:002007-12-20T17:45:00.000-05:00Judging by the number of voters on whether GM will...Judging by the number of voters on whether GM will "appear" or the alternative of "all day sucker" now totaling over 60, one must assume at least that many participants here.<BR/><BR/>As to ExSY, people are probably aware that I do chime in there at times, but try to avoid it when the heat seems to be more than light over there. And at times, C does seem to be providing more heat than light.<BR/>As to moderation, technically it is unmoderated because you can post without approval. But of course if C decides you are persona non grata s/he can kick you off. With a moderated group, the group "owner" has to actively approve the post before it goes up.<BR/><BR/>Peace and Love of the Season to all<BR/><BR/>EpiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-51548233424920913542007-12-17T17:34:00.000-05:002007-12-17T17:34:00.000-05:00Over the past 3 months, roughly 35 to 40 members a...Over the past 3 months, roughly 35 to 40 members appear to be "regulars" at the site discussed before. OK, double both hands and feet.<BR/><BR/>Which makes me wonder how that compares to the number of commenters here?<BR/><BR/>Probably not something Seekher's prepared to delve into for understandable reasons, but it's just one of those things to wonder about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-32457529834564717262007-12-17T17:27:00.000-05:002007-12-17T17:27:00.000-05:00"The fatal problem with eXSY is you have to knuckl..."The fatal problem with eXSY is you have to knuckle under to the Stalinesque moderation style of Ms/Mr "C". It's too bad there's no home/forum for those who have thoroughly renounced the Kool-Aid, but refuse to check their mind in with C."<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't necessarily put it quite as strongly as that, but unfortunately I have to agree even though I really wish I didn't have to.<BR/><BR/>Over its lifetime the EXSY site has served a very useful purpose. <BR/><BR/>But until Marta started the SY-related blog movement, which kicked off this blog, which appears to be in process of kicking off a few other blogs some people are contemplating starting up, for a very long time EXSY was the only site available for group discussion that didn't fall 100% in line with SYDA's guidelines for Siddha-speak and SYDA-support.<BR/><BR/>In other words, the only anti site available was pretty anti. And for a time, that was OK. Now that blogging SY has expanded, I wonder if things are changing? I'm not suggesting they are or should, just merely wondering.<BR/><BR/>An issue I have with EXSY is with "truth in advertising". It advertises itself as an unmoderated discussion forum. In truth, the site owner moderates very actively and on occasion rather forcefully. Sometimes I found myself very much in agreement with the moderator's decisions. Other times, I couldn't help but feel they might have been a bit over the top. I do understand the very firm line the moderator draws in order to protect people who were victimized, and actually agree with it when it comes to such situations.<BR/><BR/>But the fact remains, it's not an unmoderated site. And thus, I have a problem with it advertising itself as such.<BR/><BR/>It seems the number of active members has become rather limited over time. The number of most active members can probably be counted on both hands and both feet, or perhaps slightly over. Occasionally somebody new comes into the mix and adds some life, but often, the discussion tends to go around and around on the same issue. The names and personalities of the handful of active members has flowed and shifted over time, but people who previously were very active have clearly fallen away. It's hard to say if it's because they simply managed to fully move on in their lives after SY, or if they chose to walk away from the site because they didn't like the way it was managed. Perhaps, it's a combination of both, plus some other considerations I haven't thought about.<BR/><BR/>This is not to say the site has no value. It does have value. There's a lot of powerful and revealing sharing of information and history and history about SY, and support by those who left for those who left, that made its way to that site's records over the course of its history.<BR/><BR/>But the site requires some sort of identifying handle. Whether the member's real name or an anonymous nickname, one identifies oneself. There's no choice in the matter.<BR/><BR/>A blog usually allow for completely anonymous posting. Someone might identify another's familiar writing style, but yet there's never 100% total certainty. And thus, the blog format provides greater safety.<BR/><BR/>As the number of relatively safer blog forums about SY continues to grow, and as the regular membership of the pre-existing site continues to level off to a handful, if not dwindle, I have to wonder whether the propagation of such blogs means the time might come sooner, rather than later, when EXSY begins to contemplate eventually turning the lights off?<BR/><BR/>Simply musing about the future of the extended SY-related blogosphere on a dreary, cold monday afternoon. Wasn't suggesting EXSY should shut down. Simply trying to objectively wonder about how the evolving SY-related web discussion infrastructure might impact the prior forms of information exchange that existed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-50109487997743358872007-12-17T13:17:00.000-05:002007-12-17T13:17:00.000-05:00Sex change? Mmmmm...why didn't I think of that? Na...Sex change? Mmmmm...why didn't I think of that? Nah, I still think the drug addiction scenario is more likely, despite peoples' knee-jerk dismissal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-23503922491152073422007-12-17T13:14:00.000-05:002007-12-17T13:14:00.000-05:00The fatal problem with eXSY is you have to knuckle...The fatal problem with eXSY is you have to knuckle under to the Stalinesque moderation style of Ms/Mr "C". It's too bad there's no home/forum for those who have thoroughly renounced the Kool-Aid, but refuse to check their mind in with C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-16195941759896502392007-12-03T07:55:00.000-05:002007-12-03T07:55:00.000-05:00"Of the people I know who had personal contact wit..."Of the people I know who had personal contact with Baba the actual person, every single one of them either takes it for granted that these accusations are true, or suspects the same."<BR/><BR/>Stuart<BR/>http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/<BR/><BR/>December 2, 2007 11:41 PM<BR/><BR/>Stuart, <BR/><BR/>I would like to add a corollary<BR/><BR/>Many many professional trainings require reporting of knowledge of abuse to proper authorities. Many in SY operate under such professional constraints. That would mean that many people would be complicit in this at some level if they do not report it. But to whom?<BR/><BR/>This is not something I am comfortable talking about. Many in SY hold responsible positions in government and social service agencies as employees and consultants. They are good people. Getting into all this is central to stopping the round robin discussion. Will bringing in outside authorities help. Not likely. Reporting causes collateral damage. Not always advised. In this case impossible. No one is stepping forward. They have moved on. We are stuck with with this cancer. Even the perps have died or moved on. <BR/><BR/>We may have invent our own way forward. Using those corny concepts like love, forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance of our own and and others failings. <BR/><BR/>We are in a world of s**t sometimes with SY. I just know there is a pony in there somewhere!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-84669385951051198282007-12-02T23:41:00.000-05:002007-12-02T23:41:00.000-05:00Anon w/e wrote...My experience sure does not add u...Anon w/e wrote...<BR/><I>My experience sure does not add up to alot of what I read here</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not sure if this is meant to say that Anon w/e doesn't believe that Baba diddled little girls, lied about it, and used voilence and threats to cover it up. If so, I'll mention something about my own experience.<BR/><BR/>Over all these years, the people who express such doubts, the people who say it doesn't match their experience, have always, 100% of the time, been people who had very little contact with Baba as a person. They're always people who draw conclusions based on seeing Baba in videos, or hearing him talk in a carefully scripted program from up on a throne.<BR/><BR/>Of the people I know who had personal contact with Baba the actual person, every single one of them either takes it for granted that these accusations are true, or suspects the same.<BR/><BR/>Stuart<BR/>http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/stuartresnickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16879896068458013439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-24983277824173503042007-12-02T20:15:00.000-05:002007-12-02T20:15:00.000-05:00"My conclusion is those who run on pre-conditioned..."My conclusion is those who run on pre-conditioned mindset autopilot contract their own joy and take others down with their sufferings and attachments to pain and drama. "I stopped believing in 'sin', 'original sin' ,'devil' 'evil' etc <BR/>They are concepts which allow no room for self accountability by projecting onto something outside our own inner state. I believe in understanding my shadows which are part of Shiva and a part of who I am." <BR/><BR/>This sounds right on to me. However as symbols they have been around a long time. You are calling them shadows. How do you integrate them?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-13788626442142413102007-12-02T14:52:00.000-05:002007-12-02T14:52:00.000-05:00I believe there is no such thing as original sin, ...I believe there is no such thing as original sin, that it's a concept from some person's mind into a book or oral law. That it's a concept of contracted conciouness, another layer of pre-conditioned mind our culture and family upbringings have been mired in these last 2 centuries. Our meditations are a physical measuring stick of our disciplines and my experiences of my own inner state are peaceful and joyful. My conclusion is those who run on pre-conditioned mindset autopilot contract their own joy and take others down with their sufferings and attachments to pain and drama. I stopped believing in 'sin', 'original sin' ,'devil' 'evil' etc <BR/>They are concepts which allow no room for self accountability by projecting onto something outside our own inner state. I believe in understanding my shadows which are part of Shiva and a part of who I am.<BR/>Language is powerful. Certain "faith-based" concepts are no longer working as humans get more expansive (compassionate conservatism is neither these days). We can even have this discussion once considered taboo. The internet is helpful this way. Maybe gm is even reading and learning. Holla, girlfriend!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-54014134520436063512007-12-02T12:20:00.000-05:002007-12-02T12:20:00.000-05:00Ummmm... just want to say thank you to people who ...Ummmm... just want to say thank you to people who answered, you know? it's a strange feeling, I still see (most of) you as part of my "spiritual family", although many are out of SY, others 1/2 in/out (like me)... but I really loved the serious comments.<BR/><BR/>Pp<BR/><BR/>PD: In my case, don't worry for unkind comments, I guess I've developed a thick skin, hahahahaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-84845550364312469162007-12-02T11:18:00.000-05:002007-12-02T11:18:00.000-05:00to Anon 9.47 "Why is this so hard to understand?"B...to Anon 9.47 <BR/>"Why is this so hard to understand?"<BR/><BR/>Because the dialogue is NOT directly about the issue you raised: acknowledgment/retribution from GM. The dialogue is about "yes, it happened," "no, it didn't," "yes, it did," "no, it didn't, or at least you don't have proof," ETC. <BR/><BR/>And, as several others posted since, this can be seen as detracting from the intended "rituals" discussion. I found it interesting that someone who called themselves an "outsider" pointed to a similarity between this dynamic and what the "energy drain" IN SY. I think that's astute. And all the more telling if that observer is really an outsider of SY.<BR/><BR/>tied of same old same oldAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-39755345388196818052007-12-02T10:59:00.000-05:002007-12-02T10:59:00.000-05:00"Any one of you could attack me viciously in a wri..."Any one of you could attack me viciously in a written comment here on the blog, and I'd think to myself "Well, they're entitled to their opinion. I don't know who they are, and they don't know who I am, so it doesn't matter to me. Whatever." I don't think it would upset me, since it's just a blog.<BR/><BR/>Is something wrong with me?"<BR/><BR/>Short answer, no. Seems like you have a thick skin and a healthy sense of self-esteem. I'd add that there is nothing wrong with others who do experience hurt feelings when they experience that their comments have been responded to harshly. <BR/>That would seem to be a very human reaction as well. We are anonymous here, true, but are ideas and opinions and questions are very personal, and are about things that have meant a great deal to many of us for many years. So, I would appeal to all to be as gentle as possible.SeekHerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08659121733477310544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-61823082092849438682007-12-02T10:31:00.000-05:002007-12-02T10:31:00.000-05:00"Learnings impossible if others do the homework th..."Learnings impossible if others do the homework that only we can do."<BR/><BR/>Brilliant statement. Usually, one that is quite true and that I typically agree with.<BR/><BR/>Problem is, some kids do everything they possibly can, to avoid doing their homework.<BR/><BR/>Another person asked that we write to each other less harshly and more gently, that phrasing things delicately and not cuttingly will help. This is the person who wrote:<BR/><BR/>"To those out a long time and playing hard ball with those of us still clinging to our ideals what can I say that wouldn't result in a flame throwing contest? All of you are excaliber wits of the tongue. Horribly cutting words as we have seen. Talk kinda nice here, please? It diverts attention from real issues when folks have to get their feelings hurt, then apologize, then explain again, then analyze all that, then apologize again, then pat everyone on the back for getting through all that. See what I mean? This could take days. We could skip all that type of 'dialogue' if we didn't hurl malotov cocktails. Seriously it is not being mincing about one's language that we are talking about. Our phrasing directs the outcome."<BR/><BR/>I sit here in wonder, in total amazement.<BR/><BR/>This is the internet. We're reading and conversing on a blog. Most of us wisely choose to hide behind a shield of anonymity, myself included. <BR/><BR/>Hurt feelings?<BR/><BR/>An internet blog is about as impersonal as it gets. Isn't it? Even if someone throws a verbal molotov cocktail at someone else here, the fact remains: It's just the internet. I'm dumbfounded at seeing that people can feel hurt at a bomb thrown by an anonymous source to an anonymous source. I simply cannot comprehend it.<BR/><BR/>I suppose people's feelings can be hurt here by the words and phrasing used. But, when this communication format is so highly impersonal, is feeling hurt a choice that was selected by the feeler of the hurt? And if so, can the feeler of the hurt also choose to not feel hurt, remembering that it's only the internet and not take it so personally?<BR/><BR/>I don't mean to be offensive but I'm just trying to get my mind to grasp the concept of feeling hurt while participating here. Maybe my emotional core is missing something important. If someone I knew, whose opinions I cared about and whose respect meant a lot to me, came up to me face to face and said something really hurtful or cutting, or slapped me in the face, I'd feel hurt then, for sure.<BR/><BR/>But here? Any one of you could attack me viciously in a written comment here on the blog, and I'd think to myself "Well, they're entitled to their opinion. I don't know who they are, and they don't know who I am, so it doesn't matter to me. Whatever." I don't think it would upset me, since it's just a blog.<BR/><BR/>Is something wrong with me?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-85384090762252793492007-12-02T10:07:00.000-05:002007-12-02T10:07:00.000-05:00Friends, here is a reality check that only the com...Friends, here is a reality check that only the community can answer.<BR/><BR/>The title of this blog is Rituals of Disenchantment.<BR/><BR/>The back and forth between those demanding to be convinced that the abuse actually happened and those who have provided insights, information and advice for further reading...<BR/><BR/>Is this contributing to the ongoing ritual of disenchantment, or becoming an energy drain, that hinders the work of disenchantment?<BR/><BR/>Only the community can answer the question. <BR/><BR/>This outsiders sees a counter ritual <BR/><BR/>'Convince me' <BR/><BR/>'Here is something to read' and gives a URL to some literature that summerizes findings by many respected and experienced psychotherapists.<BR/><BR/>'I dont want to become an expert'<BR/><BR/>'Here are the dynamics of how<BR/>predators single out vulnerable persons least likely to speak up, which is why 25 years later, many of them will hestitate to speak up.'<BR/><BR/>I get your point but resist reductionist arguments.'<BR/><BR/>So...is this contributing to rituals of disenchantment or is it pulling energy and attention away from the ritual of disenchantment, perhaps because that ritual of disenchantment has been working too well??<BR/><BR/>One thing that comes through to this outsider is that SY appears to have been all about energy drain. So dont let it drain the energy that has been sustaining the ritual of disenchantment.<BR/><BR/>People who demand to be convinced that something really happpened we can remind them of where they can read the many accounts already posted by persons bearing witness. But only they can convince themselves.<BR/><BR/>Learnings impossible if others do the homework that only we can do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-78580736490766048372007-12-02T09:47:00.000-05:002007-12-02T09:47:00.000-05:00Dear tired of the same old same old,The abuse by M...Dear tired of the same old same old,<BR/><BR/>The abuse by Muk happened in Muk's time. Muk's gone.<BR/><BR/>The coverup attempts of Muk's abuse were made at GM's direction. GM is NOT gone.<BR/><BR/>The abuse perpetrated by Afif and Butler happened during GM's time. Although GM took action and axed both Afif and Butler, she still has yet to own up to her own coverups.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, the issue remains not fully resolved for many. Hence the cries of "abuse, abuse" continue ad infinitum not because Muk did it, but because the current leader has yet to make retribution.<BR/><BR/>As long as the matter remains unresolved by GM, I fail to see how this can possibly fall into the category of "same old, same old." For many, the issues remain very much as alive and fresh and hurtful as when they happened.<BR/><BR/>Why is this so hard to understand?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-45599886116525216412007-12-02T09:40:00.000-05:002007-12-02T09:40:00.000-05:00To the person who asked "For example how did the p...To the person who asked "For example how did the person still in siddha yoga, who was studying LSY, meet the two people who were abused? It seems odd to me, do they give workshops, or were you their neighbor, or are they still near SY? There seems to be more than one gap in the story, be it true or not, and even then the value of the testimony which this person got directly and had to deal with over time....to be beleived by us....on a blog."<BR/><BR/>How did I know them? SIMPLE. They were friends of mine from the SY center I participated in at the time.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps that was an important detail I left out yesterday.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-68230868543143982392007-12-02T08:28:00.000-05:002007-12-02T08:28:00.000-05:00Stopped in for a chaser on my race to completing g...Stopped in for a chaser on my race to completing good things for a change. Wow what is happening here in this very long comment thread? There must be 6 threads here on different fascinating topics. <BR/><BR/>As a meditation I got this after reflection. I share with my brothers and sisters here. <BR/><BR/>Pass on what was good <BR/>Tainted. Yes SY tainted <BR/>Original Sin damns us all to Eternal Hell<BR/>Adam's Original Sin was failure to sacrifice himself for others <BR/>That is all we are being asked to do sacrifice ourselves for others. <BR/>SY helped me learn more about selfless service. But for what? <BR/><BR/>If I can get over losing the certainty I had in SY I will be on my way. This in between is hard.<BR/> <BR/>To those out a long time and playing hard ball with those of us still clinging to our ideals what can I say that wouldn't result in a flame throwing contest? All of you are excaliber wits of the tongue. Horribly cutting words as we have seen. <BR/><BR/>Talk kinda nice here, please? It diverts attention from real issues when folks have to get their feelings hurt, then apologize, then explain again, then analyze all that, then apologize again, then pat everyone on the back for getting through all that. See what I mean? This could take days. We could skip all that type of 'dialogue' if we didn't hurl malotov cocktails. <BR/><BR/>Seriously it is not being mincing about one's language that we are talking about. Our phrasing directs the outcome. Be sure you mean what you say and it is something you would say to someone's face. I think that should be our criteria here. Who knows we may want to meet in person some day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-1872300904370697622007-12-02T08:13:00.000-05:002007-12-02T08:13:00.000-05:00Re: Anonymous said... Hey Pp, your the one who bro...Re: Anonymous said... <BR/>Hey Pp, your the one who brought this up and now your Po poing it as just a thing of the past. "tired of the same old same old" know one likes to talk about this stuff over and over again, but when someone like yourself brings it up, you will get answers. get over yourself kido.<BR/><BR/>December 1, 2007 8:44 PM<BR/><BR/>Grettings anonymous commentor above. <BR/><BR/>Seekher requested that the group here help moderate for potential issues. So here's my take.<BR/><BR/>Your somment to Pp is boderline offensive and rude. We try our best to be as polite as we would be in person here. How's that for a guideline? <BR/><BR/>Would you speak this way to Pp in person. Probably not. Pp seems like an absolutely adorable person to me whose heart could easily be broken by roughing up. No one should have to prove they are a tuff mug on the streets to post a comment here. <BR/><BR/>You shoud rephrase what you said to Pp and apologize. IMHO as some like to say.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-61827017432965531612007-12-01T20:44:00.000-05:002007-12-01T20:44:00.000-05:00Hey Pp, your the one who brought this up and now y...Hey Pp, your the one who brought this up and now your Po poing it as just a thing of the past. "tired of the same old same old" know one likes to talk about this stuff over and over again, but when someone like yourself brings it up, you will get answers. get over yourself kido.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-62729612021144298272007-12-01T17:28:00.000-05:002007-12-01T17:28:00.000-05:00Oh I am with you Pp, I have quite a big doubt. Fo...Oh I am with you Pp, I have quite a big doubt. For example how did the person still in siddha yoga, who was studying LSY, meet the two people who were abused? It seems odd to me, do they give workshops, or were you their neighbor, or are they still near SY? There seems to be more than one gap in the story, be it true or not, and even then the value of the testimony which this person got directly and had to deal with over time....to be beleived by us....on a blog.<BR/><BR/>My experience sure does not add up to alot of what I read here, and to be honest sometimes I wonder if some are filling a love gap or filling a self guilty gap. SY is certainly not the only path, you can become "yourself" being a weaver if you please. No offence to anyone, just saying it is not easy to figure out "everyone's" motives. (Not saying all at you Feliz.)<BR/><BR/>Anon w/eAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-81596465655484987042007-12-01T14:18:00.000-05:002007-12-01T14:18:00.000-05:00Just before the New Yorker article came out, i was...Just before the New Yorker article came out, i was told personally and directly by the (now) ex-CEO of siddha yoga that the sexual abuse alluded to in the New Yorker article did, in fact, happen. Swami Durgananda also came to the Boston Ashram before the New Yorker article was released and spoke with a group of higher ups, confirming the truth of sexual abuse of female devotees by muktananda (something she later denied doing). I have also spoken directly with Sarah Caldwell and what she revealed in her paper (as far as numbers and reactions to the abuse) was just the "tip of the iceberg". Gm's brother also told me face to face two years ago that muktananda was "sexually irregular" with female devotees (!). <BR/> As Hans and Franz would say, "believe it or don't".<BR/>anonymousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-60542252528413995542007-12-01T13:24:00.000-05:002007-12-01T13:24:00.000-05:00To PpIn my case, I left SY for reasons other than ...To Pp<BR/><BR/>In my case, I left SY for reasons other than these supposed abuses. I say this to indicate I personally have no reason to be in denial. If I saw it, hey, I'm sure I'd call it. But there were other things that affected me personally (like the whole corporate phase of SY, the quality of the way teachings are now delivered) that caused me to lose interest. <BR/><BR/>These days I see people crying abuse left and right in this world (esp the so-called spiritual world). That doesn't excuse abuse when it really happens, just to say it is very hard to know for certain. There was violence in the history of my family, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. But do I spend my adult life letting the world know about it? I have other things to do... That is not denial. it is choice.<BR/><BR/>tired of the same old same oldAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-86412276135146123722007-12-01T12:02:00.000-05:002007-12-01T12:02:00.000-05:00Dear Pp,You ask "am I the only reader of this blog...Dear Pp,<BR/><BR/>You ask "am I the only reader of this blog who is, as of today, skeptical of these abuses?"<BR/><BR/>You are indeed not the only one skeptical of the abuses.<BR/><BR/>In my own case, I know two of the victims directly. I've spoken with them about it. They convinced me it actually happened. I had to make a choice between continuing to associate with the source of such harm, or dis-associating myself. It wasn't a matter of not missing SY terribly at first, because I did. It wasn't a matter of denying the love I felt for teacher and community and practices and teachings, because I did formerly love them and missed them very much. <BR/><BR/>But I simply had to ask myself whether I could be supportive of such harm, or not.<BR/><BR/>Unlike me, my spouse is still in SY. My spouse also knows the victims, believes the abuse happened, but thinks there was some higher purpose that guided the perpetrators, that it was either tantric practice or some kind of divinely inspired action. And thus my spouse excuses the leadership of SY and still believes in them. I don't like this situation but my spouse is an adult and can make their own life decisions. I can't say it's not difficult to have to continue to see pictures of the SY leadership all over my house or hear their voices on chanting CD's or VHS videotapes or DVD's of talks and/or chants, or to smell the familiar SY brands of incense when my spouse does daily pujas. It is difficult for me. For the most part, I've learned to tolerate it. Can't say I'm 100% happy, but a truce seems to have established itself over the issue. My spouse still firmly believes SY is true. But I do see my spouse's doubts arise, only to get stuffed down, shut down, pretty quickly. My spouse is not yet ready to see things for what they are. Too much of my spouse's adult self-identity is wrapped up in SY for there to be the courage to tear it away. And I can understand that fear, so I forgive it.<BR/><BR/>In short, no, you're not alone.<BR/><BR/>Lots of people refuse to believe the abuses happened. You call yourself a skeptic but if I may be so direct, I would describe you as someone in some degree of denial about it. I don't mean to be insulting but denial has varying degrees of intensity...beginning stage denial is something I would consider normal and something to be expected. What I'm saying is, I think you're in initial denial about it but I also think that is OK, that it's understandable and is normal.<BR/><BR/>Why do I say this? Because I experienced it myself.<BR/><BR/>I certainly was in this stage of initial denial for several years. I read LSY extensively a good two or three years before I finally quit, and chose to disbelieve it. <BR/><BR/>I made the decision in my own mind that all those stories couldn't possibly be true. <BR/><BR/>It wasn't until I was confronted with the truth of what happened, through direct discussions with friends of mine, who happened to be the two victims I know, that I was faced with the choice of accepting that they weren't lying to me, versus choosing to continue to deny it and thus drawing a conclusion that they'd lied to me. <BR/><BR/>I chose to accept their statements since I was given no reason to suspect otherwise. Meaning that, my instincts and certain "learned signals" indicated to me that they were telling the truth. My "gut feel", my "instinct" wasn't getting any signals of deception. <BR/><BR/>And, by observation, by looking for "learned signals", I did not observe any signals indicating deception from these claimed victims.<BR/><BR/>What I mean when I'm saying "learned signals" is that as part of an earlier career (security-related), I was trained to look for certain facial movements, eye movements, vocal tones and ways of phrasing things, details that, put together, seem logical versus "not adding up", that when examined all together, tend to indicate deception (lying), versus those that tend to indicate truthfulness.<BR/> <BR/>I hope I haven't offended you but your words truly sound just like my own words about 5 years ago.<BR/><BR/>I am seeing myself in you.<BR/><BR/>And it moved me to respond this way.<BR/><BR/>What you are examining is painful. It is natural for a human being to shy away from pain. <BR/><BR/>Yet sometimes, growth demands pain.<BR/><BR/>Emotional growth, physical growth, spiritual growth. All of us living as human beings on Planet Earth have experienced this in our lives: <BR/><BR/>Having grown and become more seasoned, more mature, from experiencing emotional pain. Think of when we're young, and we first experience romantic love and the pain of its loss. In work or social situations, many of us inevitably come across a person who attempts to use us, or betrays our trust. The first situation gives us maturity and teaches us to be careful when forming romantic bonds with another person, the second situation teaches us to be more world-wise in our professional and social dealings.<BR/><BR/>Having experienced the physical pain of building our bodies (especially when we're younger) or simply trying to keep our bodies held together well (as we age).<BR/><BR/>My experience is that spiritual growth is no different.<BR/><BR/>Anyhow, this is my experience and my experience-based perspective and I hope it has been helpful, and not hurtful to you, Pp.<BR/><BR/>And to all you other lurkers out there as well.<BR/><BR/>Feliz Navidad y Prospero Ano Nuevo.<BR/>(Lo siento, no hay tilde en mi computador.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794942461067348825.post-68815256219316962682007-12-01T12:01:00.000-05:002007-12-01T12:01:00.000-05:00To Pp"am I the only reader of this blog who is, as...To Pp<BR/>"am I the only reader of this blog who is, as of today, skeptical of these abuses?"<BR/><BR/>--<BR/>Definitely you are not alone--even among readers of this blog. Not to mention the multitudes who don't read here or who have otherwise grown tired of the whole issue and don't want to spend more time debating it. <BR/><BR/>I think you are the one who pointed out that it is a relatively small but vociferous crowd making all the noise about abuses. People tend to ignore that there were supposedly also young women involved who did NOT feel abused and/or angry about what happened. The angry ones don't understand this or feel a need to put their own spin on it. But the fact remains: there was/is more than one way to look at the whole situation. <BR/><BR/>Assuming, I guess, that one acknowledges that some sort of situation did occur. For me, the Sarah Caldwell article indicates that to be the case, and I find her academic position lends some credibility. <BR/><BR/>So I guess what I'm suggesting is that I (for one) am willing to accept that "something" did in all likelihood happen. I reserve my skepticism for the details, which I don't believe we'll ever really know. And without those kinds of details, I'm not willing to make judgments about what happened. <BR/><BR/>In fact, I personally know one of the individuals claiming abuse in SY, and have also observed that person over many years, and have very specific reasons to not believe claims that person makes. This is not to say other individuals aren't credible. But the point is, if you don't know first hand, how can you be certain? That's called blind faith.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com