An idol of Lord Ganesha is hoisted by a crane into Hussainsagar Lake in Hyderabad on September 22, 2010.
That would be waving and that would be crying,
Crying and shouting and meaning farewell,
Farewell in the eyes and farewell at the centre,
Just to stand still without moving a hand.
In a world without heaven to follow, the stops
Would be endings, more poignant than partings, profounder,
And that would be saying farewell, repeating farewell,
Just to be there and just to behold.
To be one's singular self, to despise
The being that yielded so little, acquired
So little, too little to care, to turn
To the ever-jubilant weather, to sip
One's cup and never to say a word,
Or to sleep or just to lie there still,
Just to be there, just to be beheld,
That would be bidding farewell, be bidding farewell.
One likes to practice the thing. They practice,
Enough, for heaven. Ever-jubilant,
What is there here but weather, what spirit
Have I except it comes from the sun?
--wallace stevens
119 comments:
Saw this photo in th news, thanks for second look. I like thinking of it as SY/GM. In one of her talks shee gum talks about drowing, she didn't struggle to swim, she was a 'daughter of the ocean'. Just let it overtake her.
I think you are a brilliant writer and I pray you can release your mourning in a timely manner...it takes as long as it takes but for some of us, we have no more time or energy to waste on this sad escapade. So much shakti throughout the world, why fixate on what Caroline Casey would call 'the toxic mimic'?
and love the ganesh photo!
After all, think about you...you're writing these eloquent poems about it all and the object is a woman who wrote a poetry book called 'smile smile smile.' Kind of like that book 'my pet goat' that Bush was reading when 9/11 hit...And she even convinced us, in all our educated and articulate intelligence, to buy notepads inscribed 'everything happens for the best.' And got us all to ooh and coo over her profundity...Seekher, I pray.. how the hell did it all happen?
one explanation is all I can devise:
tantric black magic.
get stoned enough out of your mind on high-grade shakti-bongs and you'll follow the purveyor anywhere, even off the next cliff.
hey your blog design is very nice, neat and fresh and with updated content, make people feel peace and I always enjoy browsing your site.
- Thomas
I found your blog after seeing Eat Pray Love. My best friend has been a Siddha devotee since the early 90s. She's not as involved now, and she never pushed me into joining.
I was curious about the religion and would go with her to satsangs at the Oakland ashram and it was nice. I did once see Gurumayi in San Francisco when she gave a talk and she did have some incredible energy.
But I never felt a REAL connection. Somehow I felt I was putting the power of my spirituality and awareness into someone else.
The price tag was ALWAYS off-putting, too. Just saw the announcement for the Shaktipat intensive at the Oakland ashram and it's **$500** to attend. Students get the bargain price of $170. Only those with disposable income have the privilege of a chance at enlightenment. PEH!
I've since married into and embraced Buddhism. It makes sense and it's free. I'll still go to satsangs once every couple of years with my friend, but I certainly don't take it seriously.
They do make some good smellin' incense, though!
--Amy from the Bay Area
Anon: "And she even convinced us, in all our educated and articulate intelligence, to buy notepads inscribed 'everything happens for the best.' And got us all to ooh and coo over her profundity...Seekher, I pray.. how the hell did it all happen?"
I'm sure it was much easier for G to convince intelligent and creative people of her profundity, and I'm not sure that black magic was involved as much as black opps.
I remember once going up in darshan and watching as a severely handicapped young man in a wheelchair was presented to Gurumayi. She blessed and dismissed him with the instruction to repeat "every day and in every way I am getting better and better." How is it, I wonder now, that I didn't instantly recognize the facile cruelty in such a gesture? But I know the answer, because my mind was busy inventing magical outcomes and healings that would surely be his if the boy only obeyed the Guru's command.
"Everything happens for the best" was never meant as a description of reality, however optimistically viewed, but as a prescription for those famous glasses Baba was always talking about. It was a scrim which we willingly pulled over our own eyes, through which we made ourselves see a shaded and partial reality. The more inventive and creative the excuses we made for why we were seeing only part of the picture, them more successful G was in convincing us of her profound understanding.
We did it. Not her.
It is indeed amazing (and embarrassing) how easily she got US to do the work of convincing ourselves of her divine and insightful nature. The walls started to fall down for me when my wife fell ill and GM had more questions than answers, and no perceptive insights that I could tell, and seemed rather clueless. I was less willing to provide divine explanations to fill the vacuum after that.
SeekHer,
Your reference to “Everything Happens for the Best” (I had the card with that saying on my puja for years) connects, for me, to the recent horrific string of teenage suicides and the “It Gets Better” project.
“Its Get Better” could also I suppose be slammed by some for being a sound-bite platitude. However, for me, the big difference between something like EHFTB and IGB is how the latter is being used, to address some of the real horrors of the human condition – bullying, homophobia, self-hatred, and fear to name just a few at the top of the list. Also, the “message” IGB has provided a springboard for countless people to come forward and talk about how they have slowly been able to come to terms, overcome, or at least better manage what tragically and far too often leads others to take their own lives.
(And, with all due respect to anyone’s personal spiritual affiliation, the IGB is taking place entirely outside any particular faith.)
The point, or one of them I suppose is that EHFTB gave us an easy out, a way to say “Swa-ha!” about everything negative in our lives. In SY we were told “everything is perfect.” When, in 2010, seven teenagers across the country commit suicide within weeks of each other because they so hate themselves or so fear the way others hate them, everything is not “perfect.” It never has been, but maybe, some things can, over time, with a lot of effort, improve.
For me IGB is an example that, despite how much orgs like SY may have soured some of us on the notion of “positive messages,” they can actually have depth and purpose and address, perhaps even begin to break down (vs. magically dissolve) at least some of the barriers to our true liberation.
Just some connections I making today. For whatever it’s worth.
- Lucid
http://www.youtube.com/user/itgetsbetterproject
oh, and p.s. re:
"The more inventive and creative the excuses we made for why we were seeing only part of the picture, the more successful G was in convincing us of her profound understanding."
I've thought about the "two to tango" in regards to SY many times but have never seen this aspect of it put so specifically, or well. Thanks.
- Lucid
"The first big question I have is: how do you deal emotionally with the fact that Gurumayi has disappeared?"
Hello folks of guru enchantment and disenchantment. Appreciate the blog and especially this question. I think it's a trully great self inquiry. Very honest to ask.
I wanted to believe I was all over and beyond the training wheels of SY because I made the conscious choice to walk away after 20 years of bliss, magic and some of the best times of my life, but my emotions and dreams at night say otherwise. There is a pining in my heart for sangha and the beauty of all those gorgeous rituals, fire, amber oil, rose petals, ghee and Brahmin priests, etc., I adored the chanting, the honoring of deities, the sparkling order and beauty of the shrams. I seemed to flourish in those atmospheres then. But, my experiece is, right now, that the day of the Guru is over, and thus I no longer feel drawn to any spiritual community revolving around a head figure, whether they are a living or past historical Master. But, what's interesting to note on this process: As the "bliss ninny, bhakti-type" I tend to be where temperament is concerned, my emotions are very slow to process all this mysteriousness of spiritual evolution. So, slow that for probably the last 7 years now, I have been having the same darn disturbing dreams (at night when I sleep) of revisiting different Siddha ashrams where I had spent so many passionate days. All have this drab, shell-like, atmosphere with Stepford-wife-like sevites or obnoxious karma police types lingering around, espousing the current "rules of Siddha Yoga". Sometimes, Gurumayi is in these dreams, and it's the only part of the dream that has a more real quality to it.
Jury is still out on the interpretation. Except now, after finding this blog site tonight, I feel a bit more connected again. I have always wondered what happened to all my friends from the Siddha Yoga community as we all seemed to have drifted far apart all over the states and world, consumed it seems, by almost impossible and tragic challenges of life which I used to feel relief from (or was it escape) in the sangha. Life is complicated and plain difficult without the obvious grace I felt from my spiritual seeker days. I miss those sweeter, blissfully ignorant times where I was actally avoiding some of my life. Now, the rubber is meeting the road and there is no mighty Guru in town to deliver feel better moods.
Namaste,
artsquiggle
artsquiggle
great post. thanks
Great comments and shared thoughts on how SY avoided shadow. Thank you! I have felt for a long time that this was the very incompleteness and eventual piraya of SY teachings which looks as though it has finally eaten itself alive.
I know it's precisely that distasteful avoidance of life's shadow which drove me out, and for awhile, to other teachers like Adyashanti and Eckhart Tolle. At least these dudes, and without the drama, answered some of my questions about the shadow side while refusing to play the guru game with me. I really enjoyed going on a spree of hearing many, many different teachers talk openly about their own unique experienes of elightenment. What B.S. guilt trips that SY tried to lay on us about the "guru/disciple disloyalty" of attending other teacher and sangha events. That part, I do NOT miss.
Anyway, my post SY stage of the multi-teacher spree lasted from about 1999 to 2002. I liked the refreshing approach to the "ordinariness" of enligtenment, until, it seems, every Tom, Dick, Susan and Harry was sitting up in a chair giving their version of satsang. It then became grossly ridiculous to me--any search for anything. Afterall, who was this identity which needed to search for purity and god knows what when my practical life was in shambles?
Have any of you noticed, that this development in spirituality is not privy to SY? I have crossed paths with many former seekers from this Guruji, that Ananda, or Mayi Mamas who are now in the similar place of wanting nothing to do with "spiritual" anything. Some even say that "enlightenment" itself is the greatest hoax. I have no idea. All I can grasp these days is a greater appreciation for empirical science and enjoying the hell out of the simplest fine pleasures, like a tasty meal, good glass of wine and my dog. In fact, my dog is my true guru these days, always happy to seem me no matter what condition I'm in.
Regards,
artsquiggle
artsquiggle,
Your posts are helpful to those still working on what it all meant. Thank you for them
'practical life in shambles'
Same for me. My practical life went down the tubes. cannot get back those 25 + years of endless exhausting seva and every last nickel I had of dakshina spent while I should have been developing a career. The opprotunity cost of spending the most productive years of your life in Siddha Yoga, astronomical.
Lately there are many anniversaries, retirements, celebrations of accomplishment to attend, not for me. I cringe to think of how with all the talent, energy I had when I came to Siddha Yoga in my early twenties, I managed to not establish myself securely. No, I burned it all up, flushed it down the toilet of a complete charade.
Parents reading: This is why Siddha Yoga's focus on young people, encouraging them to become involved is a very very bad idea. There is nothing in Siddha Yoga of merit for the young. What? Worship a pedofile? Believe in charlatans and ego maniacs? Even the staff are distorted individuals that in no way should be guiding the young. Teaching them to give up their independent thinking and become addicted to the Guru. Chant the mind control chants everyday? Really read the Guru Gita. Not even real scripture, but something mashed up by thought control minds.
The only one's still defending Siddha Yoga are still on the dole in some capacity, directly or indirectly. Their survival still depends on the cult.
Artsquiggle, hope you keep writing, our experiences similar, but you say it so well. Appreciated.
Liked your orginal post a lot. When it was good, it was very good and I too miss that. The connection to others was real. The cult just sold us our ownselves.
Post #1
Dear Anon 10/21/2010 at 1:00 pm:
I'd like to a couple of comments you made in reply to Artsquiggle. For starters:
Quote: " 'practical life in shambles'
Same for me. My practical life went down the tubes. cannot get back those 25 + years of endless exhausting seva and every last nickel I had of dakshina spent while I should have been developing a career. The opprotunity cost of spending the most productive years of your life in Siddha Yoga, astronomical."
Endquote
Anon, your trajectory and mine were nearly the same. Got involved in SY as a 20-year old in college in 1980 through my then-hatha yoga teacher, a Muk devotee, who had us chant ONS for about 5 minutes and meditate for about 5 minutes after the shavasana period at the end of every class. After about a month of this, felt the third eye area tingling fiercely while chanting ONS and felt the most settled and calmest I ever felt in my life. I was in a fraternity at the time and was doing drugs with my frat bros...my grades were in the toilet and I was making an absolute mess of my life...and desperately wanted to change it. Was also really into reading Castaneda and when I both read Play of Conscioussness and heard of the stories of people giving up their addictions to Muk and him taking the addictions away through the Shaktipat touch, I was a goner.
I met Muk at an intensive in May 1981 and had many, many of the classic experiences he described in POC...and upon my return any craving for drugs or alchohol I'd had previously was utterly gone.
You couldn't have found a more devoted convert to SY than me.
Little did I truly realize that I was simply trading one set of addictions for another. As it turned out, my initial wariness of getting involved with a Guru that I initially felt when I found out my hatha teacher had a guru, turned out to be good instinct.
Despite the lingering anger and sadness of having wasted 25 years of my own life and youth in SY...again, a similar trajectory to yours...it's still hard for me to avoid feeling some tiny shred of gratitude to Muk for my drug addiction going away. Whether he took it, or simply used something else to free myself...maybe I'll never fully know or understand. Whether his shaktipat touch was ultimately good for me or bad for me...again, I may never know or understand.
Anon, and friends...LOL! I hope you don't mind my laughing online. I don't mean to be flip but I could not help thinking from my SY oriented (conditioned) mind--"UH-OH! Look at this post explosion!!! A technicality of system 7 or is Gurumayi pissed, or is the "shakti" really excited about this exchange?" LOL! I'm sure it's just a technicality unless I want to indulge myself s'more in the narcissism of being "so spirtual".
Anyway, I'm reading these recent posts with more and more interest, seeing so much similarity, that I wonder if we actually know each other from being on staff. I was an ashramite resident in Fallsburg for several years around '87 to '89, worked in the Art Department and on Darshan Magazine. I loved every minute of it. And it was hell on earth for me to re-enter real society after that, for a long time.
In all fairness, I felt Gurumayi was quite generous and kind to me while I was on staff or in service at other centers which only adds to the controversy in my soul. I witnessed and experienced miracles that I cannot explain during all these magical SY years. But, I don't discount the possibility that I was simply drunk on the koolaide, enjoying rich hallucinations. I still don't know for sure either, if this was a good thing for me, or just a way to stall out on my own talents, development, practical responsibility and challenges in life. At this point, I can only accept that this is just how my life has gone. And it could have been a lot worse, if not better.
I too met Muk in 1981 and I was about 22. My Big Bang was in a Santa Monica, California Intensive, when he poked his finger into my third eye and slapped the top of my head. I was pretty much a goner for the next 20 years. I also didn't get my career stuff off the ground, at least, not in a way that was stable enough to bring me better circumstances than where I am today. My priority was always "my sadhana and service to the Guru." And thus, I think I drained energy out of meeting the demands of building a really successful career, decent savings and retirement.
I too spent a fortune on SY intensives, courses, materials, etc. Although, at the time, I was convinced I needed all this and was doing exactly the right thing. I still don't know now, if I was. Except, that I know I've done a pretty lousy job preparing myself on a practical level for getting older, which is no bed of roses. I feel like I'm now burning the candle at both ends to play catch up in the mature autumn of my life.
Since I don't know or necessarily buy that "Everything Happens for the Best", I find myself burning in a strange friction between a personal Russian roulette game and a planet that may not promise human survival at all. Being in the unknown feels odd and my emotions often don't feel ready for it.
Anyway, it's really nice to find this blog after so many years of feeling separated in a great silence from old SY buddies and the community in general. Bravo to this Blog author and its many contributers for the courage to speak out truthfully about your experiences, pain, questions. It is very helpful and comforting to me as well. In time, may prove to be plain healing. We'll see.
Warm Regards,
artsquiggle
P.S. comment to: "The cult just sold us our ownselves."
Well put. I so get that now, but took me so, so long. Even when I hung out for a couple of years with Adyashanti, after my double decade escapades with SY, I still didn't totally get it when he kept talking about the snake oil salesman who sold water by the river. And even Baba talked a lot about getting rid of what you haven't got. The strangest thing of all in life to me, is that all these teachers eventually cost us simply to tell us how we don't need them. Crazy stuff.
Warmly,
artsquiggle
When after many years of sustained spiritual 'practices', very few disciples even exhibit basic generosity, courtesy, faith, detachment or equanimity (let alone signs of nondual enlightenment) it is reasonable to decide that the 'true guru' in question was never, ever one at all.
SeekHer:
Apologies for the prior duplicate post under "Kriyas". This "Adieu" stream is the one for which the Jackson-Presley-Oprah-Guru connection comments are intended.
And speaking of stream, that Ganesh image is so great. With all due respect other particular beliefs, I just love watching my personal fantasies about such things as a "Remover of Obstacles" sinking to the bottom of the ocean. A fittingly elegant farewell indeed.
Maybe that was your original point and it just dawned on me now? If so, Duh!
Either way, it's all good.
- Lucid
“He had the luxury of creating whatever reality around him he wanted to create, of being the God of his own world. He had the luxury of having the kinds of people around him who would go along with his program and disposing those who would not . . .
People used to ask me ‘If that’s how he is, why don’t you say something, why don’t you try to stop him?’ But if you did speak up, you were out . . .
He was an incredible, incredibly dynamic person. If you were in his vicinity and he showed, or wanted, or was willing to show you who he was – when he did that I have never, never felt so high in my life. He had something so intoxicating about him and when he was ‘on’, when he was ready to share that and give it to you, I have never been so intoxicated by anything. He was like a drug for me. I have never felt so high. I always wanted to be around him . . .
But if you made him confront something he didn’t want to confront he could make you go away – and he would would do this to anyone, including his family . . .”
– Lisa Marie Presley,
Describing her marriage to Michael Jackson
Oprah Winfrey Show
October 22, 2010
Oprah (whose formative years and later career possess, IMO, many parallels with you know who) has been a guilty pleasure of mine for decades. Now that everything can be DVR’d, I record and tune in for the highlights when time permits. Wasn’t particularly interested in Lisa Marie Presley but got sucked in the moment the words coming out of her mouth started sounding more and more like they could have been uttered verbatim by a former SY inner-circler.
Still fascinating to me, this gene in our DNA apparently, that pulls some of us into relationships with these “force field” personalities.
In retrospect, I think participation in SY cured me once and for all of such things. In the end, shaktipat wasn’t a booster for enlightenment as much as the ultimate vaccination against gurus.
It’s nearly impossible for me to believe I’d fall prey to someone like that today. That said, I’m still knocking on my wood desk twice before I post this.
- Lucid
Hi SeekHer,
Tried posting this last night. Don't see it so giving another whirl. Hoping third time's the charm . . .
“He had the luxury of creating whatever reality around him he wanted to create, of being the God of his own world. He had the luxury of having the kinds of people around him who would go along with his program and disposing those who would not. People used to ask me ‘If that’s how he is, why don’t you say something, why don’t you try to stop him?’ But if you did speak up, you were out . . .
He was an incredible, incredibly dynamic person. If you were in his vicinity and he showed, or wanted, or was willing to show you who he was – when he did that I have never, never felt so high in my life. He had something so intoxicating about him and when he was ‘on’, when he was ready to share that and give it to you, I have never been so intoxicated by anything. He was like a drug for me. I have never felt so high. I always wanted to be around him . . .
But if you made him confront something he didn’t want to confront he could make you go away – and he would do that to anyone, including his family . . .”
– Lisa Marie Presley,
(describing her relationship with Michael Jackson)
Oprah Winfrey Show
October 22, 2010
Oprah (whose formative years and later career possess, IMO, many parallels with you know who) has been a guilty pleasure of mine for decades. Wasn’t particularly interested in the Lisa Marie interview but got sucked in the moment the words coming out of her mouth started sounding more and more like they could have been uttered verbatim by a former SY inner-circler. I posted them over at Rituals of Disenchantment but also thought to come here and share them with you.
Still fascinating to me, this gene apparently in our DNA, that pulls some of us into relationships with these “force field” personalities. In retrospect, I think participation in Siddha Yoga cured me once and for all of such things. In the end, shaktipat wasn’t a booster for enlightenment as much as the ultimate vaccination against gurus.
It’s nearly impossible for me to believe I’d fall prey today. That said, I’m knockin’ on my wood desk twice before I post this.
- Lucid
BBC documentary series to watch
Century of the Self
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6718420906413643126#
also can find on Utube
Documentary applies to many comments here. Werner Erhardt is in there. Werner helped shape the Siddha Yoga mind control machine for Baba. Covers his techniques, same as used in Siddha Yoga.
Post #2
Dear Anon 10/21/2010 at 1:00 pm and Dear Artsquiggle,
I'm the accidental multi-posting anon. I've resolved not to post anything to ROD from my work computer anymore...obviously my employer's upgrade to Windows 7 is having multiple unintended consequences and I apologies to both SeekHer and the ROD readership for your having to wade through 4 to 5 redundant posts.
It was awful...I'd hit the Publish button and my screen would go white and I'd literally have to shut down and reboot in order to get Internet Explorer to unlock. By the time I could get back to ROD, I saw the result and felt so awful.
Anyway, Anon's original post had some passages I wanted to respond to, and thought it would take a good bit of writing to do that. Hence, I named my post the other day "Post #1".
One of these passages was: "My practical life went down the tubes. cannot get back those 25 + years of endless exhausting seva and every last nickel I had of dakshina spent while I should have been developing a career. The opprotunity cost of spending the most productive years of your life in Siddha Yoga, astronomical."
I too can say similar. While I've had a reasonably successful career life...for some reason I was never drawn to be a full-time ashramite or slavite, and did spend much of my early years figuring out what kind of work I wanted to do and/or was going to be good at...Siddha Yoga crippled me in many other ways. In terms of relating to the opposite sex and affairs of the heart, I was a classic "very late bloomer". It was more a matter of "manning up" and facing the fear of rejection courageously more than anything else. I was still VERY inexperienced when I met Muk at age 20, and going hook, line, and sinker for a "spiritual" environment and organization where celibacy was preached very publicly and romantic involvement with the opposite sex was actively discouraged...it amounted to a lot of necessary time of life ordinarily spent building experience in learning how to navigate successful long-term relationships, getting utterly wasted.
I did eventually marry, but to a Siddha Yogini who is unfortunately still very much involved and just refuses to see the reality for what it is.
Which brings me to another passage of yours you posted the other day, which was: "The only ones still defending Siddha Yoga are still on the dole in some capacity, directly or indirectly. Their survival still depends on the cult."
Not just their economic survival, Anon. My wife survives on my very sufficient income and other resources rather nicely. BUT, the survival of her SELF-IDENTITY is still utterly dependent on Siddha Yoga. Her despondency on the state of the "path" and the unavailability of Malti to her adoring devotees, makes her utterly, crushingly depressed. Everything has suffered as a result of it in our family life. She is often totally unclear in her thinking, her judgement and discernment are often utterly clouded, her ability to think sharply is now totally dulled and so is her former ability to get things done quickly. It's like she's moving in slow motion and I know it's only partially based on physical fatigue. The emotional fatigue and baggage Malti has left her with, is painfully sad to watch. I feel so good to be free of any dependency on the Guru anymore. And I watch her, in her despair, and it makes me despair for her.
So, Anon, you at least may have wasted your career building years and now may face financial difficulty. For that, my heart goes out to you.
But at least you've reclaimed your own SOUL. And for that, I think you should thank yourself.
Just one man's humble opinion.
As for how such a good former devotee left SY...well, maybe that'll be my next round of posts at home, when I have more time.
Peace, Out.
-Accidental Multiple Posting Anon
(Might as well give myself the handle "AMPA" for the acronym.)
AMPA
This you described: "utterly, crushingly depressed. Everything has suffered as a result of it in our family life. She is often totally unclear in her thinking, her judgement and discernment are often utterly clouded, her ability to think sharply is now totally dulled and so is her former ability to get things done quickly. It's like she's moving in slow motion and I know it's only partially based on physical fatigue. The emotional fatigue and baggage Malti has left her with, is painfully sad to watch."
This was very much a description of me as I was getting out. Before you actively say to yourself or others that you are done, maybe this phase you described is the prelude to exit. It is terribly depressing to give up what you thought you had in Siddha Yoga. You feel you are losing everything.
As the comment said in the beginning of this thread, I think it was here, there was this cocoon of certainty that we wrapped ourselves in. The capacity to delude oneself was enhanced dramatically by the practices of Siddha Yoga. Like the frog with the slowly increasing heat, you are cooked before you realize.
So glad to be out, though moving through the exit very confusing and painful. Took a lot of courage just to get to the door in fact. The fog you describe your wife in, was like my own when none of it made sense anymore. Still I kept up, even increased the time spent on practices. When I most needed a break. Maybe wife can be coaxed to take a break outside Siddha Yoga box. Even Malti does it.
Dear AMPA--I agree with the previous poster, that depression your wife is in the grip of could be the birthplace of freedom, if she can get some help. They talk (or used to) so much in SY about "inner wisdom". When the old inner wisdom is knocking at the door of the conscious mind, trying to pry it open, just a bit, there is huge fear of what it would mean to open that door--complete obliteration of the SY self. It's terrifying! I remember it well. The resulting depression can be very deep. But I believe it is a sign that somewhere inside there is awareness that letting go is the way forward. Somewhere inside is the knowledge that she's been hoodwinked. When she is willing to open the door to that knowledge, she will begin to see that the world is still there, she is still there, you are still there for her. It's the fear of losing the SY self that is paralyzing. Actually losing it is scary and sad for a while, but it's also immensely freeing. If you can help her be brave enough to open that door, it would be a very good thing. And that requires total acceptance of her being where she is with it, not trying to talk her out of her dependence or convince her of anything. If she knows she can rely on you, she may develop that courage to look behind the door. Just what worked for me....
Older but wiser
OBW,
"Paralysis" is the most apt descriptor for her state. Complete emotional and mental paralysis, which per my last post, obviously affects her physical state as well.
I've been out of SY for going on 6 years now. I've long since given up dropping the arguments of the abuses of various types that were hidden from us non-ashramites who were occasional short and medium-term visitors to the ashrams in the US and India.
I know she's intentionally blocking, beyond simply closing her mind or not listening. So why waste my breath?
I typically don't interfere with her attendance of local GG or Satsang. I find it amusing that as she and I age, so do the majority of the people involved locally and some of them are quite senior. Very, very few truly young people get involved anymore it would seem...and who could question why? What would hold them? The converse of why a younger person WOULD get involved with SY would be more pertinent. It would be a surprising thing indeed.
I believe eventually SY will gradually begin to die as our generation of Muk and GM devotees age and live out our lives.
The ONLY thing I typically do interfere with on an annual basis is to refuse to give her the $500 from my own earned money for the annual October pre-recorded swami-delivered video intensive. This year she had some funds given to her by a relative and I did not interfere with her taking the intensive this year. In fact, it was probably a welcome day of quiet away from our very difficult child. Bue when she has to depend on my funds to ask for an intensive, I really have a difficult time being willing to divert that much money that could otherwise be spent on family-wide needs, just to go into Malti's Swiss bank pockets. I rather pay the IRS for the charitable deduction not taken, than get the tax break. At least then I contribute a tiny iota to the US national debt...something I can get behind far more than I can to lining Malti's pockets.
-AMPA
When you have time, article in Scientific American, explains some of how we let ourselves be duped. Haven't read the whole thing. which I will as I am still trying to explain to myself why I let the Guru take over my entire life. I really need to understand that.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=superstitions-can-make-you
The Scientific American article linked to about magical thinking seems to point to the "power of positive thinking". Beliefs related to that were certainly on offer in SY. Just having the belief that we were special in some way, had the one true path, a true guru--those things all have effects.
Mind is powerful. SY had the answers to all our questions, just like fundamentalist Christianity or Islam do. Being a true believer gives you a certain kind of strength. Can't deny that. But at what cost? Those of us who have left know the costs were unsupportable. The cognitive dissonance, the deeply felt (often deeply hidden) lack of integrity, the denial--very high costs in terms of emotional and mental health.
AMPA--I really empathize with you, it must be very difficult to see your wife still so hooked. Very tough situation you're in. To clarify my comment from yesterday, by "supporting" your wife I didn't mean paying for her intensives or implying approval of her involvement. What helped me begin to move toward leaving was a couple of friends who made it clear to me that they had no interest in SY, but who didn't judge me for my involvement and demonstrated their love and acceptance for me, no matter what crazy group I might be involved in. Their love and lack of judgment allowed me to let down my guard, to allow in those unwelcome thoughts--why didn't GM acknowledge what Muktananda had done, why did I feel fear at the very idea of raising that question with a swami, how could it be that asking questions could get me removed from the ashram, put on a list? How could that be reconciled with "true path". Given a safe, non-judgmental atmosphere, lots of similar questions began to pop up in my mind, and there were no answers for them in SY. I was fortunate because my friends really did not judge me and I could feel that. I did not have to defend anything or justify anything. It's hard for those of us who have been hurt by SY to extend that same non-judgmental acceptance to our friends still in, but I think it's the only way to give them the space to tap into the real "inner wisdom". As long as we feel judged, we tend to remain defensive and locked in. Feeling a bit persecuted goes right along with being a true believer. That plays out everywhere, in politics as well as religion, I think.
Older but wiser
Response to
"It's hard for those of us who have been hurt by SY to extend that same non-judgmental acceptance to our friends still in, but I think it's the only way to give them the space to tap into the real "inner wisdom".
This is good for me to read. Recently found an old book, "The Inner Game of Tennis". There are two voices in our heads, the judging one really makes a mess of things.
Thanks Older
Quite new to this blog, I spent hours tonight back tracking, scanning through all of the archives so I can better understand the intent, history and knowlege shared by the author and contributors. At the moment, I most welcome clarification on any evidence or information on GM's dissappearance--that she has pocketed millions in Swiss accounts and now lives in deceitful retirement, high on the hog, etc.
I'm not looking for a confrontation, I'm just trully curious and inquiring for my own wake up calls if needed. Even though I walked away from SY in 2001, mainly because I felt its time was over, I now wonder if I dropped the ball in investigating more truth. I didn't walk away completely free and clear of hurt and rage. Thus, I may still be blinded and hijacked by old SY thinking which could explain my attraction to this blog. I'd rather expose myself to truth and see what happens next.
Please share any thoughts, info, links.
Thank You,
artsquiggle
"I find it amusing that as she and I age, so do the majority of the people involved locally and some of them are quite senior. Very, very few truly young people get involved anymore it would seem...and who could question why? What would hold them?"
--- My comment on this: the kids who would become interested in SY today would look to the internet to learn more about it. What they'll find on sites like this will turn them off right away. No kid wants to be the butt of criticism and ridicule and there's much to criticize/ridicule in SY today. Only people who don't use the internet to function on a daily basis could take SY seriously anymore.
"The converse of why a younger person WOULD get involved with SY would be more pertinent. It would be a surprising thing indeed."
--- I can see a kid getting involved in SY to become introduced to some of the basics - but only at a distance since the centers have little to offer and only from a place of real neediness.
Neediness has its down sides but on the up side, real neediness usually drives a seeker to find a way to meet it. Eventually most young SY seekers (and most sincere older seekers) will find better practices and better teachers.
That's my take on this comment.
"Her despondency on the state of the path and the unavailability of Malti to her adoring devotees, makes her utterly, crushingly depressed.
"Everything has suffered as a result of it in our family life. She is often totally unclear in her thinking, her judgment and discernment are often utterly clouded, her ability to think sharply is now totally dulled and so is her former ability to get things done quickly...
"I watch her, in her despair, and it makes me despair for her."
I wonder if it might be a good idea for you to consider some family counseling - if not including your spiritually resistant wife then at least with your kids? Living with a mother in this condition is probably a challenge for them.
And I wonder if it affects your mental health in a good way, living with the ghost of the woman you once married? Have you thought or prayed about this?
Just asking because I am kindly concerned for your welfare - no expectations that you'll follow my suggestion.
Artsquiggle said: "Quite new to this blog, I spent hours tonight back tracking, scanning through all of the archives so I can better understand the intent, history and knowlege shared by the author and contributors. At the moment, I most welcome clarification on any evidence or information on GM's dissappearance--that she has pocketed millions in Swiss accounts and now lives in deceitful retirement, high on the hog, etc."
Dear Artsquiggle,
I don't think you will get evidence of "disappearance" in any literal sense, artsquiggle. She has disappeared from the public eye, not given public talks in the past 5-6 years. Maybe one exception, a "New Year's message" that she gave--but it was prerecorded, not given in a public program, then shown in centers and ashrams via DVD for $100--and shown again the following year for another $100. Intensives are one-day DVD affairs now, with talks by swamis and bits of old talks by GM or Muk spliced in, $500. There is one Intensive per year, in October. They showed the same DVD in 2008 and 2009--exactly the same intensive, two years in a row. I don't know if this year's was a "3-peat".
Many people who go for short-term seva assignments have reported seeing GM in Fallsburg over these past 5-6 years, at different seasons. It is not publicly reported where she is, but that was always held pretty tightly. People have seen her offsite, in Italy especially, occasionally. She has been to India at least once in the past few years. She did not go to India when either of her parents died, both of them within the past 7-8 years. She made no comment at all about her mother's death, which occurred while she was still giving public programs, I believe in 2002. (You are probably aware that SMA was closed to visitors in 2004. Can't even go to the Temple or walk around the lake--even if you purchased a "tree of immortality" to honor a dead loved one. Only those on staff or short-term seva are allowed on the property.)
The Swiss bank account story is not confirmable. Muktananda set up accounts for her and her brother before he died. Supposedly there was 1 million $ in each one initially--that's been reported for almost 30 years, but I don't know who the original source was, or if there was ever a "paper trail." That part is trustworthy. The rest, about where money has gone in the meantime, is speculation. I have never seen proof. We know money was horribly mismanaged, projects were started and never finished. Projects were described and donations collected and then nothing at all was done. Buildings were sold--where the proceeds went, who knows? There might very well be millions in Swiss bank accounts, and then again, there may not be. No evidence exists as far as I know.
GM has always lived as high on the hog as was possible given her public persona. People in the "ex" community who were once her personal shopping sevites in Manhattan can attest to that. If you were ever involved in buying an official gift for her, you would have seen it. All her silks had to be of a certain quality, preferably purchased in Hong Kong from a particular merchant. All her robes crafted just for her, finest cloth. No mere 14 carat gold, that is way too plebeian. Silver?? Don't even think about it (except to drink from). Diamonds. Right down to the best chocolates, specific ice creams. Only the best.
Hope that's helpful. I'd direct you to the archives of eXSY, but apparently that list is no longer accepting new members.
Older but wiser
re: "She did not go to India when either of her parents died, both of them within the past 7-8 years. She made no comment at all about her mother's death, which occurred while she was still giving public programs, I believe in 2002."
For what it's worth, tribute pages to both parents, along with details of Subash/Nityananda's travels to attend their funerals in India with his other siblings, were up at his Shanti Mandir website as recently as 2008 (at least that’s when I first found and read them). I just checked, hoping to provide a link, and it appears his site (just like SYDA's for that matter) has undergone a recent facelift.
Maybe someone who remembers their parent’s first names can still fact check but the timeframe sticks in my mind because the discovery so struck me. My recollection is that their parents died within a year of each other ( 2006 & 2007), shortly after Gurumayi's 50th birthday (2005). So after she "disappeared."
I was tipped off to this discovery via comments at The Guru Looked Good when Marta's book was still up as a blog, then went to Shanti Mandir site to research and saw the tributes, and every indication that Subash's parents were very visible, highly revered members of his community, which makes total sense – they gave birth, after all to the heir(s) to the throne.
What struck me as I read through the tributes was how down-to-earth, how normal and human, it seemed to be actually talking about and honoring one's parents, especially at such a time. The language at SM was respectful but also ordinary, not glorified. Or at least a striking contrast to the style used in the press releases at SYDA.
After reading through his site, though at that point I’d been out of SY for over a year, I felt sadness for the loss and sadness for Gurumayi. I emailed a friend I'd lost touch with, a person at one time right by Gurumayi's side, someone still very connected. I sent what I felt was a sincere, carefully worded, non-threatening note of concern. I acknowledged I'd heard about the passing of Gurumayi's parents and wondered what the response had been within the SY community.
I received a curt reply to the effect of: “I don’t know anything about this; I’m not the one to ask.”
This from a friend of nearly thirty years. My heart broke a little. Back then I was still in a grieving process over the loss of SY, I was still in the throws of letting go, and my friend’s response painfully reconfirmed SY was absolutely something I had to move on from.
Still, I had this sense of Gurumayi alone somehow, or maybe just disconencted from, all these major life passages. And when I wondered for myself what history, circumstances, emotions, etc. it would take to prevent me from attending either of my parent’s funerals, or for that matter lead me to abandon my adult life and go into hiding, I felt sick inside.
Internally I wished for Gurumayi to find healing, peace and resolution. Then got back to the business of managing my own.
- Lucid
re: "She did not go to India when either of her parents died, both of them within the past 7-8 years. She made no comment at all about her mother's death, which occurred while she was still giving public programs, I believe in 2002."
For what it's worth, tribute pages to both parents, along with details of Subash/Nityananda's travels to attend their funerals in India with his other siblings, were up at his Shanti Mandir website as recently as 2008 (at least that’s when I first found and read them). I just checked, hoping to provide a link, and it appears his site (just like SYDA's for that matter) has undergone a recent facelift.
Maybe someone who remembers their parent’s first names can still fact check but the timeframe sticks in my mind because the discovery so struck me. My recollection is that their parents died within a year of each other (in 2006 & 2007), shortly after Gurumayi's 50th birthday (2005). So after she "disappeared."
I was tipped off to all this via comments at The Guru Looked Good when Marta's book was still up as a blog, went to Shanti Mandir site to research, then saw the tributes, and every indication that Subash's parents were very visible, highly revered members of his community, which makes total sense – they gave birth, after all to the heir(s) to the throne.
What struck me as I read through the tributes was how down-to-earth, how normal and human, it seemed to be actually talking about and honoring one's parents, especially at such a time. The language at SM was respectful but also ordinary, not glorified. Or at least a striking contrast to the style used in the press releases at SYDA.
After reading through his site, though at that point I’d been out of SY for over a year, I felt a sadness for the loss and sadness for Gurumayi. I emailed a friend I'd lost touch with, a person at one time right by Gurumayi's side, someone still very connected. I sent what I felt was a sincere, carefully worded, non-threatening note of concern. I acknowledged I'd heard about the passing of Gurumayi's parents and wondered what the response had been within the SY community.
I received a curt reply to the effect of: “I don’t know anything about this; I’m not the one to ask.”
This from a friend of nearly thirty years. My heart broke. Back then I was still in a grieving process over the loss of SY, and my friend’s response painfully reconfirmed SY was absolutely something I had to let go of.
Still, I had this sense of Gurumayi alone, or maybe emotionally disconnected from, all these major life transitions. I wondered for myself what history, circumstances, emotions, etc. it would take to prevent me from attending my parent’s funerals, or for that matter propel me into abandoning my adult life and going into hiding. Thinking about these things made me feel sick inside.
Internally I said a prayer for Gurumayi to find healing, peace and resolution. Then I got back to the business of managing my own.
- Lucid
"I'd direct you to the archives of eXSY, but apparently that list is no longer accepting new members."
Wow, strange. Too bad.
TalkTalk,
We're already in family counseling.
-AMPA
OBW,
According to my wife, it was indeed a three-peat.
-AMPA
re: "She did not go to India when either of her parents died, both of them within the past 7-8 years. She made no comment at all about her mother's death, which occurred while she was still giving public programs, I believe in 2002."
For what it's worth, tribute pages to both parents, along with details of Subash/Nityananda's travels to attend their funerals in India with his other siblings, were up at his Shanti Mandir website as recently as 2008 (at least that’s when I first found and read them). I just checked, hoping to provide a link, and it appears his site (just like SYDA's for that matter) has undergone a recent facelift.
Maybe someone in the mood for a research project could go searching via their names, Sheena and Devaki Shetty. But the following time frame sticks in my mind because the discovery so struck me. My recollection is that their parents died within a year of each other (in 2006 & 2007), shortly after Gurumayi's 50th birthday (2005). So after she "disappeared."
I was tipped off to all this via comments at The Guru Looked Good when Marta's book was still up as a blog, went to Shanti Mandir site to research, then saw the tributes, and every indication that Subash's parents were very visible, highly revered members of his community, which makes total sense – they gave birth, after all to the heir(s) to the throne.
What struck me as I read through the tributes was how down-to-earth, how normal and human, it seemed to be actually talking about and honoring one's parents, especially at such a time. The language at SM was respectful but also ordinary, not glorified. Or at least a striking contrast to the style used in the press releases at SYDA.
After reading through his site, though at that point I’d been out of SY for over a year, I felt a sadness for the loss and sadness for Gurumayi. I emailed a friend I'd lost touch with, a person at one time right by Gurumayi's side, someone still very connected. I sent what I felt was a sincere, carefully worded, non-threatening note of concern. I acknowledged I'd heard about the passing of Gurumayi's parents and wondered what the response had been within the SY community.
I received a curt reply to the effect of: “I don’t know anything about this; I’m not the one to ask.”
This from a friend of nearly thirty years. My heart broke. Back then I was still in a grieving process over the loss of SY, and my friend’s halting response painfully reconfirmed SY was absolutely something I had to let go of.
Still, I had this sense of Gurumayi alone, shut down or disconnected from all these major life transitions. I wondered for myself what history, circumstances, emotions, etc. it would take to prevent me from attending my own parent’s funerals, or for that matter what cumulative effects would propel me into abandoning my adult life and retreating into the shadows, without explanation to those most concerned.
Thinking about these things I felt sick inside. Internally I said a prayer for Gurumayi to find healing, peace and resolution. Then I got back to the business of attending to my own.
- Lucid
OBW, Lucid and friends,
Thank you for your responses to my inquiry about "the evidence" of GM's bailing. I have been so disconnected from SY and hard at work at repairing my life since 2001 that I didn't know anything about SMA being closed. Didn't know about GM's parents passing and her lack of response, nor that the last three New Year programs have been repeats.
At this moment, I feel especially sad for the way this particular community, cult, whatever it was, has come to a close. My heart really goes out to the people, the devotees who hadn't already made their exit and began their repair process before these disturbing events. I can't even imagine not being allowed to visit and walk anywhere on the grounds of "the main building." Not even go by the temple which to me, was the very heart of hearts of the SF ashram. Over the years, I have had little fantasies of returning to SF for a short visit, to help myself reframe the past. Guess that's not likely to happen. Are visitors allowed in Ganeshpuri?
And, yes, it's pretty weird to see no acknowlegement from GM about her own parents' death, even if they had disowned her so many years ago. At least, that was the story I got in a very long letter about the Nid/Chid split "from GM" many years ago. The letter came with clippings from Indian newspapers that disparaged Malti for the greatest betrayal to her own family. Back then, I felt so aligned with Gurumayi that I never questioned the whole scandal.
But, after decades of so many people coming together and investing in a community and a Guru, it doesn't seem right at all to keep a great secrecy around GM's MIA. Don't we all have a right to know of our own guru's well or unwell being?
Really creepy that a handful of swamis keep repeating the same hollow program three years in a row and have the nerve to charge $500. No wonder, that for many years now, I have been having these very disturbing dreams at night about SY's hollow, fading existence. I can conjecture away all evening with creative ideas, possible scenarios of what may have happened to GM, but what is the point if all we really know is that she has been uncomfortably absent without any explanation for many years now.
Again, my condolences to those who are still eduring a lot of suffering and pain from this break. It took me a couple of years to make a transition. Going to other teachers who brought a down to earth perspective about spirituality and enlightenment was very helpful. Finally, when my Dad passed away from cancer shortly before 9/11 I went into the most deadly of any depression I had ever experienced. Almost didn't make it out alive. There was something about having to hold and deal with so much grief like that, which made my loss of SY pale in comparison,and I've been healing and cleaning up my life affairs ever since. I also became a political activist which was personally empowering to me and reconnected me to the world in a new way. That's how I have personally survived all this stuff.
Anway, thank you friends for sharing and bringing me up to date. Of course, I'll be interested to know if any news of GM should pop up. Won't we all!
Regards,
artsquiggle
Artsquiggle, you asked "Are visitors allowed in Ganeshpuri?"
If you mean "the village of Ganeshpuri and the Nityananda temple and historical buildings in the village", the answer is "yes, anyone can go".
If you mean "Gurudev Siddha Peeth", the "mother ashram in India" (pardon me while I gag) the answer is "No, absolutely not without pre-clearance, pre-approval, and pre-payment". At least, that's the way it was in 2004 when I visited GSP for a couple of weeks. Can't imagine it's any easier to get in there now. There are security guards at the gate in front of the GSP Nityananda temple and in front of the gate of the dorm area across the street. They didn't carry guns on their person (at least not overtly in plain view) but I did hear that they had them at the ready in the guardhouse at the gate just in case they became necessary.
The guards let the public come in for Arati in the mornings and evenings at the Nityananda temple at GSP, and for any chants held there or what used to be named Guru Chowk hall or for a visit to Muk's Samadhi Shrine. But guards prevented those without clearance from getting any farther than the "upper garden".
So, the answer is "no, you can't go to GSP to stay there, not unless they've cleared you first".
SeekHer: You've "Come out"????
">>Anyway, my post SY stage of the multi-teacher spree lasted from about 1999 to 2002. I liked the refreshing approach to the "ordinariness" of enligtenment, until, it seems, every Tom, Dick, Susan and Harry was sitting up in a chair giving their version of satsang. It then became grossly ridiculous to me--any search for anything"<<
Hello,
just catching up here...and this caught my eye. Man, the whole satsang train has sure gotten crowded. Alot of old Osho folks, left-overs from various guru paths and the new "awakened ones" (students of students of students of) as well. It's kind of a weird thing..I find myself almost looking for proof of at least SOME kind of background in the basics and, on the other hand, alot of satsang givers who have that background, got it in very weird places. Plus, it's like a club...they all tout each other on their websites...recommeding each other. Many are decidedly "unbaked" (as we used to say). Some, like Adyashanti, are the real deal but I think he may be the exception. I have seen people recommending Annette Nibley and Steven Wingate (students of John Wheeler who was/is a student of Sailor Bob who was with muktananda and then nisargadatta). I have "met" both Nibeley and Wingate...one I spent some face time with..When somebody is so disassociated from reality that he rarely leaves his ground floor apartment and communes mostly with his two (very nice) cats, I wonder about how grounded in the actual experience of Beingness he is. There is alot of "awakeness" on the mental level...and very little "awakeness" on the heart level or the gut level (as Adyashanti would say). How is this all that different from syda? It's just "cooler" and less culturally weird. If somebody is so bothered by the "vibrations" of other people that it takes him 40 minutes to process those vibrations, I seriously wonder about the level of "awakeness". If it's "Not Two", then how can vibrations be so bothersome? I also have some problems with the bullying quality of several "Stop! right here and now!" teachers now enjoying alot of popularity and spawning a whole new group of pupils turned teachers. It feels very very rigid to me....a cement wall that you run into like The Roadrunner cartoon. The original teacher (Sailor Bob in this case) appears not to be that way at all..but he is creating a bunch of folks who have very little flexibility. humanity, compassion or even acceptance of the paradox of being both the One and one of the many. And they all feed each others concepts, emailing, talking on the phone and offering those weekly satsangs to mirror their own "understanding" back at themselves. I have not seen alot of honest, open, ordinary human questioning and interaction...except wih Adyashanti. Most of the other satsang people I've run into appear to just be creating another conceptual framework and calling it something else. A good sign of this is over-seriousness and a lack of humor about "the Truth".
this subject has be troubling me for a while now as I see more and more people offering "satsang" to unsuspecting seekers. So..thanks for bringing it up.
been around the block
Hey guys, thought it might be helpful for those who didn't see this when SeekHer originally posted it to add it back into this stream. Hopefully it helps to cut down on all the duplicate posts.
On Thursday, August 26, 2010, SeekHer wrote:
"HOUSEKEEPING: Ignore Comments Too Large Warnings from Blogger
I get these too when I comment, and I've learned to ignore them because my comments always go through in their entirety. It is a Blogger glitch . . .[and] no need to cut and paste and resubmit into several different comments. And there is certainly no need to edit yourself to avoid having your comment be "too big". This ain't the home of the 45 second experience share, folks. Have at it."
Hooray. Finally somebody now faces the same technical issue as me.
Maybe it's Blogger's web technology and NOT my network at my worksite after all.
-AMPA
"I'd direct you to the archives of eXSY, but apparently that list is no longer accepting new members."
Too bad misinformation spreads like this, especially from people who no longer wish to participate on certain sites, and move to sites (change from one screen name to another) which holds membership who hold many multiple memberships on any one site... it's all just a game of cross posting and of initiating confusion to the community, to some.
If trolls and MANY duplicate memberships would stop harassing sites as a way to try restock their absence of manipulation, and to try to silence them and shut them down, maybe things would ease up a bit.
Until then, there are plenty of people, and duplicates upon duplicates of of people who know the information to spread it on other sites, along with trying to sell their version of what person should be visited for satsang, etc. UGH!
Choices, choices...
>>"Until then, there are plenty of people, and duplicates upon duplicates of of people who know the information to spread it on other sites, along with trying to sell their version of what person should be visited for satsang, etc. UGH!"<<<
Hey,
I hope you're not referring to me here...."trying to sell a version of who should be visited for satsang. Ugh!" . I would never do that. However, I am, personally, really grateful when people post their personal face to face experience of working with specific teachers so I figured others would appreciate the same information. There is so much lying going on that it's helpful when someone just tells his/her experience and you can judge for yourself.
Also..I'm not sure what is the "misinformation" you are talking about? about exsyda? I don't think it's accurate that they are no longer accepting new members? I don't really know though. What is the "misinformation" that people are spreading on various sites? I wasn't clear from your post. But, I have to say, most people have different screen names on different sites. For instance, I used to be very active on exsyda and, although I don't post there anymore, I have tremendous gratitude and respect for the service they perform. But I also posted during the same period here on this site. I did not use the "same" screen name on both sites and I am not a troll. I think most people knew who I was from the wording of my posts. Maybe some people use different screen names on different sites?
Aren't we all trying to help each other out here? or am I being just a little naive.
been around the block
(um, I had a different screen name here a year ago but I can't remember what it is....getting old...not everything is a conspiracy).
Anon 10/27 @ 5:30 pm sounds like "C", the moderator/site owner at EXSY.
I believe the post was in reference to that site, not this one.
Hmmm, EXSY.
A site where, last time I checked, the moderator was commenting largely to him/her self for the past month or two.
Mainly because he/she systematically drove everyone else who used to participate there off the site.
Hmmm, EXSY.
A site where, last time I checked, the moderator was commenting largely to him/her self for the past month or two.
Mainly because he/she systematically drove everyone else who used to participate there off the site.
It's great to offer a lot of misinformation, isn't it? Especially when people can't even be truthful in observing outlines of what sites are for. Plenty of that went down.
Pendragon put up with all the b.s. for a long time, and I believe the owner of the eXSY site put up with the manipulation and b.s. for far too long.
I was wondering when the owner of that site would wake up and really recognize the multitude of IPs coming down the pike under any one screen name/and or combination of screen names.
Those who scream the loudest about the reality of this, are usually those who took part in the many ruses.
BE proud of yourselves for ALL of the manipulation and misdirection, and WASTE of time you put upon the site and its owner. Hours upon hours upon hours. BRAVO, well done, for those who live life by this creed.
I am not C, but I do know the owner.
Anyone who is there can do their own investigation of what that site owner has put forward about all of this. It's no secret. IPs are not hidden there. Throw the net wide enough and you will come to the same conclusions.
I did, and I was stunned to see the picture emerge.
A big shout out to each and every person who took part in this crap, and that's what it was, crap.
If you read the garbage heaped upon Dan Shaw and others from SYDA, et al, in response to the Salon article, your are either completely asleep or have made the choice to misdirect what has gone down.
Either way, it is obvious to anyone who takes the time to investigate.
No skin off the site's owner. The truth has been discovered there.
As for this site or others, anyone should be able to check IPs and keep track of what is going on. If a site does not offer you this option, and if it does and you do not know how to fully investigate IP data, you be up a river without a paddle.
Good luck... I really mean this.
What the heck is this person on about? Allegations and innuendo, the stuff of conspiracy theory. I've been on exsy for about five years. It was a great help to me but in the past couple of years it changed a lot. There's lots of suspicion, vague allegations, nothing that makes any sense. People getting banned for having two IP addresses--one at work and one at home! Like that means they're trying to trick somebody! I wondered if C got sick and someone else took over.
What the heck is this person on about? Allegations and innuendo, the stuff of conspiracy theory. I've been on exsy for about five years. It was a great help to me but in the past couple of years it changed a lot. There's lots of suspicion, vague allegations, nothing that makes any sense. People getting banned for having two IP addresses--one at work and one at home! Like that means they're trying to trick somebody! I wondered if C got sick and someone else took over.
It's far more that "two IP addresses" that are being talked about. Multitudes of IP addresses in some cases, and a multitude of screen names pulling from them, in some cases. One happy circle of misdirection and cross posting.
WAY to go to anyone who took part in this!
They are not "vague allegations" for anyone who investigates in an honest fashion for them self. If they know how to, that is.
please please please do not bring this eXSY paranoia here, oh please do not do this. it is utter nonsense. please do not do this.
seekher has open this blog to ready posting. now with these accusations, will that have to change?
just knock it off, please please.
take it back to eXSY. just not intersted in whether someone is a sock puppet or not.
this site has been doing well without it.
please please please do not bring this eXSY paranoia here, oh please do not do this. it is utter nonsense. please do not do this.
seekher has open this blog to ready posting. now with these accusations, will that have to change?
just knock it off, please please.
take it back to eXSY. just not intersted in whether someone is a sock puppet or not.
this site has been doing well without it.
It is NOT "eXSY paranoia". Funny how the truth is called "paranoia". Trying to manipulate telling of the truth is not an attractive trait.
"just knock it off, please please", in trying to NOT allow people to discover what has gone down within the community.
People have every right to understand this, and protect themselves from being pulled in any further, where ever it is found, period.
I was a quiet reader of exSY for a little while. I made no comments. It was helpful. Then I was booted off for no reason. I gave myself an new name and password to see what the heck was going on there and was booted off in about an hour. I got to see there was nothing happening there. I think the stuff about dark beings coming in the middle of the night via black magic is a bunch of BS. That was the part of the conversations that made me wonder if exSY was on the level. Magic only has an affect on someone if that someone believes in it. I don't.
was booted off eXSY also
I was a quiet reader of exSY for a little while. I made no comments. It was helpful. Then I was booted off for no reason. I gave myself an new name and password to see what the heck was going on there and was booted off in about an hour. I got to see there was nothing happening there. I think the stuff about dark beings coming in the middle of the night via black magic is a bunch of BS. That was the part of the conversations that made me wonder if exSY was on the level. Magic only has an affect on someone if that someone believes in it. I don't.
I assure you, every person who was " booted off" was done so for a reason. A thorough investigation continues on the site. It will take quite a bit of time to work through many years of posting history.
In referring to those who believe in the occult, that's a choice you make.
For those who have laid directly under the body of Muktananda and believe in it after the abuse, I do not make the choice to not believe their first hand experience with this.
Others have had first hand experiences which have shown them the reality of these forces. If you have not, don't put if off on others because they have.
Then your reason for booting me off was BS. Because I was rooting for the rape victims. I stuck up for them here on this site. I have to say that reading exSY has made any magical thinking I once had dissolve. Especially that bogus story of the dark beings at night, really jumped the shark. Believe what you wish but the actions of the owner really sucked and no magical story will improve on that paranoid behavior. "Investigation"? Wow just like the ashram behavior exSY was against. Have fun with your lists.
go back to your own site
Then your reason for booting me off was BS. Because I was rooting for the rape victims. I stuck up for them here on this site. I have to say that reading exSY has made any magical thinking I once had dissolve. Especially that bogus story of the dark beings at night, really jumped the shark. Believe what you wish but the actions of the owner really sucked and no magical story will improve on that paranoid behavior. "Investigation"? Wow just like the ashram behavior exSY was against. Have fun with your lists.
If it's how the "ashram" plays, it's not surprising they would be upset when the same tactics are used to expose the corruption.
You may have been "rooting for the rape victims", but so were many others who seemed to be "rooting for leaving siddha yoga and all of its known causes", who it turns out were only interested in manipulation and misdirection, in the end.
If your IP information was picked up in the course of finally tracking what was going down, don't blame that for what was discovered.
do not care about IP addresses that is all
please stop
do not care about IP addresses that is all
please stop
Others in this community who know about IP addresses may care A LOT, so they can protect themselves and their computer systems.
They have every right to be informed.
"received a curt reply...This from a friend of nearly thirty years. My heart broke....I had this sense of Gurumayi alone, shut down or disconnected from all these major life transitions."
your comment resonated lucid, thanks. I felt pain when I was questioning friends about her, and especially that she didn't acknowledge the passing of her parents. what a hole in her soul there must be.
maybe what OBW posted in this thread applies:
"It's hard for those of us who have been hurt by SY to extend that same non-judgmental acceptance to our friends still in, but I think it's the only way to give them the space to tap into the real "inner wisdom".
wise advice.
to protect your computer you need to purchase good security or get a mac. you do not need to clog up the discussion with hysteria.
to protect your computer you need to purchase good security or get a mac. you do not need to clog up the discussion with to protect your computer you need to purchase good security or get a mac. you do not need to clog up the discussion with hysteria.
Telling the truth is not "hysteria", but it is another interesting choice of words being used in the face of the truth being told.
Hmmm, come to think about it, someone on another site used the word "hysteria" when referring to the truth being told there, too.
If someone with the skill set is determined to hack and disrupt, a mac nor security will stop it, as some have unfortunately learned.
Another ex-cult computer myth to bust.
Anon, you wrote: "If you mean "the village of Ganeshpuri and the Nityananda temple and historical buildings in the village", the answer is "yes, anyone can go".
If you mean "Gurudev Siddha Peeth", the "mother ashram in India" (pardon me while I gag) the answer is "No, absolutely not without pre-clearance, pre-approval, and pre-payment". At least, that's the way it was in 2004 when I visited GSP for a couple of weeks. Can't imagine it's any easier to get in there now. There are security guards at the gate in front of the GSP Nityananda temple and in front of the gate of the dorm area across the street."
Thanks for this update. Unfortunately for me, I never did make it to India, while almost every other Siddha friend I knew did. Sad that the heart of hearts of SY has also become such a locked down residue of community. But then, I have to wonder if this is also a reflection of our whole world being spooked by more acts of terrorism and more REPORTED acts of terrorism that no sanctuaries, or places of worship are anymore relatively safe.
Regards,
artsquiggle
It's not about terrorism, artsquiggle. They just don't want any proles in there, anyone who is not a true believer. I do believe you can get a pass to go into part of GSP for a chant or something now, but that's it.
Fallsburg's closing had nothing to do with security issues, either. Not with terrorism concerns, I mean. The intention is to keep people out, plain and simple. How they get away with continuing to call it a retreat center and maintaining tax-exempt status is beyond me. I guess they have the IRS fooled by defining staff people as "long-term retreat participants."
Anon wrote: "...Many are decidedly "unbaked" (as we used to say). Some, like Adyashanti, are the real deal but I think he may be the exception..."
Adyashanti. Yes, I have to agree, based on my time spent with him and his wife, Annie, that he is pretty much the real deal. He was a big player in my life, and a few other close former SY friends of mine in helping us to break the spell of "the Guru". Adya never had much patience with the magical shakti approach which he described (with facial expression of disgust) as a handout of candy.
I met Adya near his beginning days when his zen-satsangs were very intimate and small. Retreats with Adyashanti at Jikoji were so wonderful (and affordable) because of the absolute simplicity of the zendo. No fluff, no pomp and ceremony. Anyone, at least then (1999 - 2001), could just sit and chat one-on-one with Adya while the small group listened in. Private Dokushans with him were so down to earth and authentic. No bowing and pranaming. No long darshan lines, filters of darshan secretaries, no fuss with clothes, tripping on those damned saris, schlepping big bags of asanas, Gita books, japa beads, gifts for GM, etc., etc, ect. Just spontaneous questions, comments and discussions about life, awareness and the struggles to get along while in these human bodies full of imperfections.
But, within a few years Adyashantih's group grew bigger and bigger and I feared it too would also lose that intimate authenticity. I had grown wary from experiencing so much nauseating artificial scripting take over many satsangs of SY. I couldn't go there again. Like many others who switched over to Adya from their former gurus, I, or we just seemed to lose the need to hang out week after week in the sangha. We realized each in our own ways and journeys, there is nothing to get.
Also, not everything I heard Adya say addressed my particular issues, nor did I necessarily agree with all of it. But, Ah! What a HUGE relief to not feel so guilty or desperate that I had to hang on every word of his particular teachings. To quote someone earlier in the blog: "Just living life is enough." It's true; there is so much to do by demand, and so much we can do to help ourselves and others. It doesn't have to wear the spiritual clothes which may be appropriate at a certain time for different individuals. It certainly seemed appropriate once for my human development. I just never imagined during my bliss-ninny days that growing up meant I actually had to meet and get through much pain and hardship. Growing older takes more and more courage which at times, I am not even sure I have enough of. It sucks when one is born without the confidence gene.
Regards,
artsquiggle
The whole thing is sad. I know I have said this before but I will say it again. I went to SF twice. Both times most of my time was spent in bede baba's temple, I can't even describe my time there, it had such a positive and profound effect on me. The day I found out that sadhana kutir was sold and the ashram locked out to day people I cried and cried. No matter how bad things became in my life, the thought that I could just jump on a plane and go sit in the temple with Bede Baba would help me. Bagavan Nityananda belongs to everyone, it's not right and it is morally reprehensible IMO to deny people access to his temple. If any of you "innies" read this please please explain to me in real language, not vague and empty phrasing why denying people access to such a great and powerful place of worship is a good thing.
Anon wrote:
"Fallsburg's closing had nothing to do with security issues, either. Not with terrorism concerns, I mean. The intention is to keep people out, plain and simple. How they get away with continuing to call it a retreat center and maintaining tax-exempt status is beyond me. I guess they have the IRS fooled by defining staff people as "long-term retreat participants."
I hear ya. I'd love to see an end if not major reform to the tax exemption law for religious followings. Seems more and more it only encourages greed, cover up and then eventual fallout. Nothing more vomitious than well intended donation lining the pockets of "the agents of God." All those billions collected from this to that "holy" gathering that could spare some to health care, education, infrastructure, environmental preservation, scientific/medical research. REAL projects of REAL need. Makes me wonder, whatever happened to the PRASAD project?
artsquiggle
"I guess they have the IRS fooled by defining staff people as "long-term retreat participants."
Methinks the IRS has bigger fish to fry. Most 503(c) organizations like SYDA, even if wealthy, are small potatoes compared to other entities and individuals out there. And even if they're bigger, there's significantly more cost to the IRS in proving a religious 503(c) is a sham than there is in auditing and/or investigating a corporation, partnership, or individual. Because IRS has to actively investigate and legally prove that the org is a sham.
Believe it or not, the US Government is under taxpayer pressure to operate efficiently and often, if there's no net "payoff" to the taxpayer worth the added expense, sometimes potential targets for investigation are left alone.
I'd be willing to wager that this is what has happened in SYDA's case.
Artsquiggle,
You asked "Makes me wonder, whatever happened to the PRASAD project?"
They're still actively begging for money. Got e-mail and snail mail from them just a couple of weeks ago. Round filed it, of course. Have asked them to take our name and addresses off their system and not mail us anymore, but so far, no such luck.
As for how actively PRASAD is still conducting "acts of charity" I can't speak to that.
I would be exceptionally curious to find out someday...wishful thinking I'm sure...how many cents of every dollar given to PRASAD actually goes straight into Malti's swiss bank account?
"We live in a world which makes it relatively easy for exploitive personalities to injure others.
If we were all paranoid, living in a paranoid mindset, this might limit our risk of exploitation; but most of us, thankfully, are not paranoid. We are not living in a mindset of vigilance to be screwed-over by others, especially those we rightfully deem least likely to hurt us.
This confers the advantage to (and all shame on) the exploiter—and should leave his victims comfortable in their ultimate dignity and innocence." Steve Becker, LCSW
This helped me not feel so bad about being taken in by Siddha Yoga. Frees my heart and mind. After the exposure of the lies, corruption, at the heart of Siddha Yoga at some point I need to let the wound heal.
Hey, Seekher, thanks for this place to reclaim a saner view.
I don't know why I didn't first think to google PRASAD. The PRASAD web pages have much more meat and content on them than the adjoining SY site which has made an extreme facelift (more like face-drop) from the ultra fancy/glossy look to plain stark ugly. I wasn't crazy about the Hollywood gloss look of the A&P Dept print and Web design but at least that look still had some class and quality to it. This current art gallery page--paintings with the new millenium's new year symbol/messages speaks volumes to me about the decay of SY. artsquiggle
Dear ArtSquiggle,
thanks for your reminiscences about the early days with Adyashanti. I have found him to be really helpful..mostly, his ordinariness and dorkiness and obvious clear-seeing compassion. After all those years of orange, red, yellow robes and glittering pujas, stupas or carefully arranged flowers, some austere, some flamboyant (and those damn saris and chubas and the rest of the costumes)...each path with its "rules and regulations", ways of sitting, ways of praying, ways of chanting, ways of breathing..and the 40 years worth of turning "myself" inside out to find the Truth...it was SUCH a relief to just drop it and stop. Adyashanti helped..just by being extraordinary and ordinary...like a friend you'd have coffee with, no big deal. And, like you said, then you begin to turn around, open your clenched fist and stop grabbing.Being here in a body.What a strange miracle!
I appreciated reading your post this morning, thanks.
been around the block
(s)
The dog and pony show of Siddha Yoga, all the bookstore items, a game of distraction.
Scientific American (again),
"Mind over Magic? Conjuring Reveals How Our Neural Circuits Can Be Hacked
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=mind-over-magic
Dear BAtB,
So glad you enjoyed my post about Adyashanti. It warms my heart to hear that you, too, found his authenic nature (loved how you described it) to be very helpful to your transition from SY, as well. I remember sometimes I even felt so angry with Adya, compassionate as he is, because what he had to say about "spiritual people" and all the nonsense that goes with it really challenged my whitewashed beliefs from SY. But, that was the true gift of hanging out with him. He helped me to accept my negative side, and for that I will always feel a special love and gratitude towards him. I don't mind sharing in this blog, that I still love to contemplate something he told me now 10 years ago in a Dokushan. After explaining some kind of painful issue to him, he said with great kindness--"L--, it's just all interpretations. That's all it really is."
Regards,
artsquiggle
I was booted off eXSY too, about 2½ years ago, basically for calling C a liar. She didn't like that. So, with some encouragement I set up my own yahoo group. I have allowed anyone to be a member, albeit with some permanently moderated. Then we found that as soon as new members signed up, they were being banned from eXSY. Someone was reading the membership list so I had to make it hidden. I'm not saying it was C (could have been her dog?) but now almost every member of my group is banned from eXSY. Coincidence? Most never posted at all there so it couldn't have anything to do with IP's, even if that mattered. Just C's paranoia. Even mentioning my group is forbidden on eXSY. Kind of laughable really in a sad way. When is C going to ban herself?
Gorakh
"Scientific American (again),
Mind over Magic? Conjuring Reveals How Our Neural Circuits Can Be Hacked
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=mind-over-magic
Anon,
Thanks for this link. I think I'll have to buy a subscription now to finish the article. I did watch the video. Really fascinating topic and could help explain all that majic I experienced. Maybe "Siddha" actually means a master magician. Who knows how this could all shake out!
OK..I gotta give this a rest to not become a complete blog hog, if I haven't done that already.
Loving this Forum though...
artsquiggle
1) Maybe the reason we never see GM is that she is too busy moderating a Yahoo group ;-)
2) Maybe a movie *is* in the making and old posts are for research and dialogue and cut everyone else out of a deal. Wink, wink!
3) I was booted off exSY first for no good reason. THEN I re-signed up to find out what was going on and was booted off again. So the answer given to me up stream is as bogus as the dark beings at night. C knows where he/she/it can shove my IP.
No winks!
4) I found LASY via this blog. But I was booted off exSY twice before I found it. Thanks for starting it.
artsquiggle,
strange, I read the whole article without a subscription. Now you need one to sign up. Sorry 'bout dat.
Some input regarding ex-syda.
Ex-syda got very very toxic last Spring..starting in March (?). From March through May, it went from a site for real communication to a place wehre series of very strange happenings got completely out of control. I don't know what was going on behind the scenes because I'm not really computer savvy but I do recognize the nasty voice of the person who is posting here regarding that site. I have alot of sympathy for what CJ has had to handle but I (along with others who had been very committed to helping on that site) were either forced out by the nasty passive-agressive attacks (many of them very much like the current poster's comments) or directly thrown off or just couldn't handle the level of toxicity going on and left voluntarily.
I think it was this hateful atmosphere that eventually made any kind of conversation impossible. Sorry for it because ex-syda was, for a long time, a truly wonderful place to be. I guess whoever wanted it shut down got what he/she wanted and, frankly, I don't think it was folks with fake IP addresses (whatever that is).
just my opinion...just a personal opinion based on my experience of last Spring not an invitation to engage in a debate.
s
When Shanks was still in SY I recall him saying, in an intro talk right in front of GM:
"Siddha Yoga is NOT a democracy."
Obviously it was not, as we all know by now.
Apparently, neither was the ex-SYDA yahoo group site.
>>"When Shanks was still in SY I recall him saying, in an intro talk right in front of GM:
"Siddha Yoga is NOT a democracy.""<<
funny you should mention him..I had a "feeling" last Spring regarding what happened . the feeling came up again after I viewed those YouTube videos of his current crop of swamis being invested...and then sent out into the world to "carry his message". He loves playing games apparently.
s.
re: "I was a quiet reader of exSY for a little while. I made no comments. It was helpful. Then I was booted off for no reason. I gave myself a new name and password to see what the heck was going on there and was booted off in about an hour. I got to see there was nothing happening there."
The above mirrors the end to my exSY participation exactly, except for the fact that only around last winter early/spring had I become a "quiet reader". Prior to that I was a fairly frequent contributor, but my entries petered out as, late winter/early spring, the three most significant (to me) exSY contributors whose comments resonated most deeply made unexpected, gracious, exits via what struck me as polite and very brief goodbyes. Many had been on the list for years, some since the beginning. I should have taken that as a sign – when the people at the party you find most intriguing head home it's a kind of cue, no? – but figured I’d stick around; might want to still check in from time to time, or go back and reference something in the archives.
Then, sometime late last spring, on the heels of (to me) an explosive conversation that one member chimed in describe as "one of the most off-putting to ever take place on exSY," I stopped posting. It seemed like everyone had left the room expect for the few people engaged in a tangle I wasn’t a part of.
A month or so later, after things had I thought cooled down, I went to check back in and received a pop up message I'd been banned by the moderator of the list.
I knew it was a mistake; there was no reason for me to be banned. But I can't tell you how creeped-out I felt because I feared someone had hacked in, taken over my screen name and was posing/posting as if they were me – a paranoid idea that would have been otherwise irrational had there not recently been discussion on exSY about such a thing happening. Many of the comments on the list and discussions I engaged in when I first joined had been helpful to me and my “relationship” to the list – albeit a virtual one – was something I felt protective of. It made me sick to think someone had hacked into my membership and was wreaking havoc, and disturbed me to think there were people out there who would do such a thing, period.
And so, near-verbatim to the above, "I gave myself a new name and password to see what the heck was going on there . . . [and, as it turns out] I got to see there was nothing happening there . . . and was booted off [again]."
I never did figure it out.
I was booted off eXSY too, about 2½ years ago, basically for calling C a liar. She didn't like that. So, with some encouragement I set up my own yahoo group. I have allowed anyone to be a member, albeit with some permanently moderated. Then we found that as soon as new members signed up, they were being banned from eXSY. Someone was reading the membership list so I had to make it hidden. I'm not saying it was C (could have been her dog?) but now almost every member of my group is banned from eXSY. Coincidence? Most never posted at all there so it couldn't have anything to do with IP's, even if that mattered. Just C's paranoia. Even mentioning my group is forbidden on eXSY. Kind of laughable really in a sad way. When is C going to ban herself?
Gorakh
October 29, 2010 3:26 AM
I was wondering when Gorakh was going to show his face. You were not accused of lying, Gorakh. You accused the owner of eXSY of being paranoid and making up the reality of being hacked and tagged.
Your insistence over the years of your "reality" in understanding technical matters and the owner not knowing what was being talked about over the years, finally reached its own conclusion. But then, this is part of your personality, isn't it... I doubt you will admit it you "proud old goat" to quote someone who knows you.
It was time for you to form you own list, and actually it was Stuart's line of posting which was taken off, as he insisted on allowing posting on eXSY which was not in in the guidelines, and threw your list in for good measure.
I remember the list owner would not allow this entry to cause any problems for any other list, as there had been enough problems in the past. It was stated that if Resnick wanted to post information of this nature on his list, to go for it, but to leave eXSY "out of the loop".
The owner of eXSY has no clue who is on your list and who is not, so that guess is completely off the mark. Although, if you have some of the membership once on eXSY, good luck with duplicates upon duplicates and the reality for potential hacking issues.
How many does it take to make up a list of approximately 80 members (from what has been discovered on eXSY and the duplicates upon duplicates)? A conservative guess would be approx 15 people.
In the final tally of it all, one name has been shared as being a co-moderator of your list. If it's true that it is this person, it is someone who held "multitudes" of IPs and screen names on eXSY. In that case, all the best of luck to everyone there.
It was time for you and C to go your separate ways. It had probably passed the point of being that time a while before the parting.
Good luck with your list, and I do mean this.
To all of the people who claim you were "booted off eXSY" for no good reason and then post in anon after anon fashion with no IP information, all the best.
When there has been enough hacking and nonsense, and then anon upon anon call "foul", it really does not land on sympathtic ears.
The hours spent with "bogus" posters is really something beyond compare. It's been uncovered now.
Good luck to other lists who hold the potential for this. Such a circular fashion of duplicates upon duplicates and their bogus postging is not something the owner of that site allowed repeated at any time in the future.
C, for God's sake, WHY do you always insist on speaking about yourself in the third person, and WHY do you always phrase things in the passive voice?
Anyone who spent any time at EXSY recognizes your very unique writing style IMMEDIATELY.
Who in heaven's name do you think you're fooling?
Examples:
"It was stated that"
(Passive voice)
"The owner of eXSY has no clue who is on your list and who is not"
(speaking of oneself in the third person)
"what went down"
(A classic that immediately tags C as being C because the phrasing is so well worn)
Could continue but it's not necessary. Just a few examples of immediate tags that identify who you are without a shadow of a doubt or a shadow of a guru.
Why not just start writing using clear, active voice in the first person rather than passive voice in the third person?
It would be extremely refreshing and might actually make it a little harder for the readership to identify who you really are, particularly if the usual oft-repeated clues aren't there anymore.
SeekHer,
Someone, my guess would be "C", said "In the final tally of it all, one name has been shared as being a co-moderator of your list. If it's true that it is this person, it is someone who held "multitudes" of IPs and screen names on eXSY. In that case, all the best of luck to everyone there."
SeekHer, sounds to me like "C" just outed him/her self as the very hacker who led to your name being "outed" here on ROD.
I hope you'll find yourself a good lawyer and the very best IT security sleuth you can find. It would appear to me that you have been given reasonable cause for action. Hacking strays beyond civil suit into actionable criminal action.
Not saying all this DID happen. But by appearances, it's conjecture that is NOT far-fetched.
Okay, let me try to straighten this out...
The person who says he is not C but sounds like C was speaking of Gorakh's list when he said one of "your" moderators has multiple IP addresses. He or she was not speaking of this blog or its owner/moderator. No worries there. There are several moderators on Gorakh's list and they all used to be members of exsy, that's how this person who says he is not C would know which of them had more than one IP address (you know, one at work, one at home, one at her sister's house in another state, one at the starbucks downtown, all those shifty places untrustworthy people hang out).
No shenanigans going on here. (No shenanigans going on at Gorakh's list, either. I know all the moderators there, and they are actual living people!)
Yeah C, why are you speaking of yourself in the third person? Everyone knows its you. Be honest for a change and own your own statements.
Similarly with your rant about people posting anonymously - I've never known anyone to be less forthcoming with personal information than you. You've joined my group using a duplicate ID - the very thing you accuse others of. I really don't care but it does show how devious and dishonest you are.
C said: "I was wondering when Gorakh was going to show his face. You were not accused of lying, Gorakh. You accused the owner of eXSY of being paranoid and making up the reality of being hacked and tagged."
As usual C, you misread my words. I never said I was accused of lying. I said (in short) that I called you a liar. The sentence about you "being paranoid and making up the reality of being hacked and tagged" is accurate and I happily stand by those words.
Gorakh - still a bad goat and LMAO :-)
SeekHer,
Someone, my guess would be "C", said "In the final tally of it all, one name has been shared as being a co-moderator of your list. If it's true that it is this person, it is someone who held "multitudes" of IPs and screen names on eXSY. In that case, all the best of luck to everyone there."
SeekHer, sounds to me like "C" just outed him/her self as the very hacker who led to your name being "outed" here on ROD.
I hope you'll find yourself a good lawyer and the very best IT security sleuth you can find. It would appear to me that you have been given reasonable cause for action. Hacking strays beyond civil suit into actionable criminal action.
Not saying all this DID happen. But by appearances, it's conjecture that is NOT far-fetched.
October 29, 2010 3:49 PM
It is not C, and the list being spoken of was Gorakh's not this site.
I outed no one here on ROD. But if "a name" (which I did not say) that was shared is a co-moderator on Gorakh's site, and used to be someone on eXSY, then all anyone has to do is examine the IPs and IDs which tag to it for themself. It's a no-brainer.
IP information is readily available on the list. Always has been.
No shenanigans going on here. (No shenanigans going on at Gorakh's list, either. I know all the moderators there, and they are actual living people!)
If it is a name which was shared, all anyone has to do is start checking readily available IPs on eXSY to see for them self. It's a no brainer.
IP information has always been available on the site, nothing new.
There are several moderators on Gorakh's list and they all used to be members of exsy, that's how this person who says he is not C would know which of them had more than one IP address (you know, one at work, one at home, one at her sister's house in another state, one at the starbucks downtown, all those shifty places untrustworthy people hang out).
Until you start to tally the number of them, and the IDs which fall in and out of them.
It's not rocket science.
"The owner of eXSY has no clue who is on your list and who is not"
(speaking of oneself in the third person)
"what went down"
(A classic that immediately tags C as being C because the phrasing is so well worn)
Could continue but it's not necessary. Just a few examples of immediate tags that identify who you are without a shadow of a doubt or a shadow of a guru.
Why not just start writing using clear, active voice in the first person rather than passive voice in the third person?
It would be extremely refreshing and might actually make it a little harder for the readership to identify who you really are, particularly if the usual oft-repeated clues aren't there anymore.
When speaking of someone else, speaking in third person is how English works.
I am not C, but I do know C
Yeah C, why are you speaking of yourself in the third person? Everyone knows its you. Be honest for a change and own your own statements.
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Gorakh, I wrote to you, and I am not C.
---
Similarly with your rant about people posting anonymously - I've never known anyone to be less forthcoming with personal information than you. You've joined my group using a duplicate ID - the very thing you accuse others of. I really don't care but it does show how devious and dishonest you are.
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After what C has discovered on eXSY, C has NO desire to join your site. Good grief, with the known hackers and all of the IDs which have been discovered, there is no chance for this possibility.
You are 100% incorrect, Gorakh. Paranoid maybe (to borrow a phrase from you). C has never signed on to your list, and never will.
Learned those lessons with no need to repeat them.
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C said: "I was wondering when Gorakh was going to show his face. You were not accused of lying, Gorakh. You accused the owner of eXSY of being paranoid and making up the reality of being hacked and tagged."
As usual C, you misread my words. I never said I was accused of lying. I said (in short) that I called you a liar. The sentence about you "being paranoid and making up the reality of being hacked and tagged" is accurate and I happily stand by those words.
Gorakh - still a bad goat and LMAO :-)
---
Thank you for refreshing my memory of the incident, Gorakh. You are not correct, but it's good to know that your lack of understanding on what took place remains entrenched.
Obviously, you still have no clue.
It's very good you and C went your separate ways. I can see this now more than ever.
C said: "I am not C, but I do know C"
Which of the voices was this? LOL
Who knows anything about C? Do tell!!
Gorakh
TO THE READERS OF RoD:
Believe me when I say I have NO idea what the last 15 or so commenters have been vaporing on about; they make me question my ability to understand computers or, for that matter, written English. Here's my best guess. There was a cat fight over at another website that requires membership. A bunch of people left. Almost everyone else had their memberships revoked by the (ooohh, scary, boo!) troll who maintains said site. All those people now miss fighting with one another and have decided to scratch each other's eyes out over here.
Well, mazel tov. I'd have thought they would have gotten it out of their collective system by now, but their collective system appears to be based on in-fighting so I pretty much despair of that hope.
It is, however, Halloween weekend!!!! Most favorite of all favorite holidays! So, in keeping with the spirit of the day, and because I loves me a good blood bath, I'm going to make a big bucket of popcorn and watch as they keep on hacking away at each other.
FLY AT EACH OTHER MY WINGED MONKEES! You have until the stroke of midnight on November 1st to continue your carnage---on this thread alone. After that time all comments related to eXSY will be erased, and any more that appear will be deleted as soon as I see them.
FLY! FLY! MY PRETTIES! DO YOUR WORST AND DO IT FAST! YOUR TIME TO ON EARTH IS ENDING FAST!
PS: any comments addressed to me or the rest of us non-ex-eXSYogis attempting to provide backstory explaining what happened over at eXSY to cause this cage match will be deleted immediately. I don't need to know what your major malfunction is or was---it's much more fun that way!
There was a cat fight over at another website that requires membership. A bunch of people left. Almost everyone else had their memberships revoked by the (ooohh, scary, boo!) troll who maintains said site. All those people now miss fighting with one another and have decided to scratch each other's eyes out over here.
Well, mazel tov. I'd have thought they would have gotten it out of their collective system by now, but their collective system appears to be based on in-fighting so I pretty much despair of that hope.
Not as I read it. There was an original comment posted where responses were left. Nothing wrong with that.
Clarification is all that has taken place.
No problem with this, and it has helped refresh my memory of events. It has also helped me to verify my decisions I made for moving forward.
Thank you for that.
C said: "I am not C, but I do know C"
Again incorrect, Gorakh. But then this is your pattern.
"When speaking of someone else, speaking in third person is how English works.
I am not C, but I do know C"
Oh, freakin' BALONEY, C!!!
NOBODY ELSE WRITES LIKE YOU!!!
Forget it...wasting my damn breath.
C's too much of a P**sy to come clean.
By the way, C, ya got MORE than just Goatie bashin' on ya here.
He's a Kiwi. I'm not him. Do I write like a freakin' KIWI????
I'm an AMERICAN who's SICK of your full-of-dark-intrigue third-person passive-voice talkin' trite 1970's catchphrase writing style and YES you do know me and NO I haven't been on EXSY in quite some time because I chose to LEAVE ON MY FREAKIN' OWN beFORE you were about to ban me. Beat yer a** to the PUNCH on that one, sucka.
Ya know what PISSES ME OFF about you MOST OF ALL, C?
It's the fact that you're too much of a G*D DAMNED P**SY to take ANY KIND OF CRITICISM TO YOUR TYRANNICAL RULE OVER EXSY FROM ANYBODY!
F**K, YOU MIGHT AS WELL BE FREAKIN' KIM IL SUNG OR SOMETHIN'!!!
GO BACK TO YOUR OWN SITE!!!
OH...yeah...I forgot. Ya got NOBODY to talk to over there anymore because you can't tolerate ANY KIND OF FREEDOM OF DISCUSSION OF ANY SORT WHATSOFREAKINEVER!!!!
I guess ya musta got LONELY or somethin'.
Wow, that felt GOOD.
Been waiting for a good couple of years to give that person a piece of my mind.
Oooh la la. Everyone, please, back to your corners.
SY must love eXSY at this point, total confirmation of their PR that outties are all nut cases.
Had to get that in before sanity returns in the form of SeekHer's moratorium on the eXSY topic.
Older but wiser
SeekHer,
My goodness people come and go so quickly here!
Hey, thanks for the last minute Halloween costume idea. A bell hop cap, snazzy rick-rack vest, furry wings and off I go!
Used to hide behind the couch as a kid whenever those monkeys flew but thinking back can now see why her green-ness chose to rule over a fleet of them. And let's not forget the Winkies. Ah! Yet another costume idea!
On second thought, nah . . . I'd rather fly than wink. And if the vest is too snug I'll ditch it for a pair of groovy big black specs and go as Kim Jong-il. Thanks to whoever provided that one. This is turning out to be some party!
Counting down to November 1st . . .
- Lucid
>>"FLY AT EACH OTHER MY WINGED MONKEES!"<<
Um, not to change the subject from ex-syda to MONKEYS!! (AHEM)..but did you ever here that story Nisargadatta used to tell? He said after the war with Ravanna depicted in the Ramayana, Rama wanted to give a reward to the bears and monkeys who had helped rescue Sita. He gave the bears what they wanted? (can't remember) and asked the monkeys what they wanted. They wanted to go where they could fully satiate their desire for lots of sex, food,revelry and self-indulgence ...so they were reborn in the West. Eventually, they tired of the whole thing and came "home" to India to reconnect with their devotion to Rama. Apparently, Nisargadatta told this tale a few times to explain why so many Westerners came to his satsangs. His given name had been "Maruti" (a common appellation for Hannuman)because he was born on Hanuman Jayanti.
Thought a little levity might be welcome at this point.??
s.
Oh, freakin' BALONEY, C!!!
NOBODY ELSE WRITES LIKE YOU!!!
Forget it...wasting my damn breath.
C's too much of a P**sy to come clean.
October 29, 2010 9:10 PM
By the way, C, ya got MORE than just Goatie bashin' on ya here.
He's a Kiwi. I'm not him. Do I write like a freakin' KIWI????
I'm an AMERICAN who's SICK of your full-of-dark-intrigue third-person passive-voice talkin' trite 1970's catchphrase writing style and YES you do know me and NO I haven't been on EXSY in quite some time because I chose to LEAVE ON MY FREAKIN' OWN beFORE you were about to ban me. Beat yer a** to the PUNCH on that one, sucka.
Ya know what PISSES ME OFF about you MOST OF ALL, C?
It's the fact that you're too much of a G*D DAMNED P**SY to take ANY KIND OF CRITICISM TO YOUR TYRANNICAL RULE OVER EXSY FROM ANYBODY!
F**K, YOU MIGHT AS WELL BE FREAKIN' KIM IL SUNG OR SOMETHIN'!!!
GO BACK TO YOUR OWN SITE!!!
OH...yeah...I forgot. Ya got NOBODY to talk to over there anymore because you can't tolerate ANY KIND OF FREEDOM OF DISCUSSION OF ANY SORT WHATSOFREAKINEVER!!!!
I guess ya musta got LONELY or somethin'.
I don't have a "site".
Anger is usually a sign of acknowledgement of truth.
Thanks for the confirmation and the attempt to misdirect what was bound to be loaded disclosure for those with the most to hide.
Bingo
They wanted to go where they could fully satiate their desire for lots of sex, food,revelry and self-indulgence ...so they were reborn in the West. Eventually, they tired of the whole thing and came "home" to India to reconnect with their devotion to Rama. Apparently, Nisargadatta told this tale a few times to explain why so many Westerners came to his satsangs. His given name had been "Maruti" (a common appellation for Hannuman)because he was born on Hanuman Jayanti.
A transparent attempt to pawn off a make believe story on uneducated "Westerners ".
This hype of these teachers, teachings and stories have circulated for too many decades to be taken seriously anymore.
Now that's levity.
Could someone explain to me what "loaded disclosure for those with the most to hide" means? I can not make head nor tails of it.
Anon who wrote: "Could someone explain to me what "loaded disclosure for those with the most to hide" means?"
Who cares? The dialog in most horror movies is ridiculous. I suggest you focus on the dark mystical beings that stalk all exies, the metastasizing IP addresses that bloom like blood algae until they choke to death the Internet, the passive ghostly voices and the active "hacking and tagging" of what I can only assume are lifeless bodies. Not to mention the Kiwis, the pussies and the creature called Gorakh that I'm pretty sure fought Godzilla in a Japanese horror film I saw when I was twelve.
Two more hours until Halloween and man this is getting goooooooood!
I think it's pretty much died down, SeekHer.
Seems like "C" finally may have gone away. Or is at least content to lurk.
Truly amazed me how he/she could claim "This is not C" at least twice, if not thrice. "C" truly has a unique writing style and anyone who has spent sufficient time on EXSY in the past would read it and peg the writer for "C" immediately. It's just such different writing than the average person...or even the un-average person" would typically use...that it just stands out and yells for all to hear "This is C writing this passage!"
The attempt to hide his/her identity, here on ROD and outside the virtual walls of the site beyond which he/she owns and controls...simply left me stunned as to how out of touch "C" is with just how much his/her writing style stands out from the crowd...and potentially how divorced he/she may have become from equal-minded groundedness in reality.
To close, speaking this "he/she" bit, if I'm not mistaken I believe the reason Gorakh/Goat calls "C" a she, is that it seems he's convinced "C" stands for Chidvilasananda herself.
In other words, the site owner for the ex-siddha yoga site is (in Gorakh's eyes?) the leader of Siddha Yoga herself.
While I believe that it's unlikely, and still think "C" is a male given the writing style...I must admit that as a means of spying on what the outties are saying, it would be quite the neat trick.
As to how the logistics would work for of a commited "Outtie" like Pendragon actually selling the EXSY site to "C" for dollars (which supposedly happened) if "C" actually is Malti...or if that is the case, whatever threats were made in order for that to happen...that much is beyond me and frankly, is not something I'd necessarily really want to know more about anyway.
This last part, it's all conjecture on my part.
But on spooky All Hallows Eve, it's at least FUN conjecture!
"I think it's pretty much died down, SeekHer. Seems like "C" finally may have gone away. Or is at least content to lurk."
And here I thought reverse psychology would only work on children and dogs!
Anon 9:57, that's an astounding bit of conjecture & spinning, all from one little pronoun. How about this: G and others may have become convinced that "C" is ... female. Not Chid, not Malti, just female.
We got a lot of practice in SY in spinning whole novels from one. little. word. from the "guru," didn't we?
Have to go along with the poster at 3:50PM. There were some on the exsy list who started wondering (offlist) if C was a woman a couple years ago, and a few of those came to the conclusion he (or she) was. Nothing whatsoever to do with GM. No conspiracy theory, just a hunch shared by a few people after years of assuming the opposite. Don't try to make something more than that out of it. C has never identified as male or female, which is his/her perfect right.
Anon wrote: "To close, speaking this "he/she" bit, if I'm not mistaken I believe the reason Gorakh/Goat calls "C" a she, is that it seems he's convinced "C" stands for Chidvilasananda herself."
----------------------------
For the record, no I don't think C is Chid. I was in eXSY for about six years and also in a special insiders group that C ran parallel to eXSY. I know C about as well as anyone and I know F.A. The very debate over C's gender should give you an idea how secretive C is.
C only matters to the ex SY community because she holds the key to the eXSY group which has been the default rendezvous for people exiting SY. I have my own reasons for addressing C as 'she' which I can't reveal here. That aside, calling C 'she' does jolt your comfortable assumptions about her doesn't it?
Gorakh
Four key departments in cults
1. Finance
2. Legal
3. Technology
4. Recruitment
SY no longer has use for number 4.
The other three remain active.
Cults hope members and ex-members remain uneducated in these three areas.
Most members of cults are focused on the leader, their devotion, their seva, the practices. They are not focused on the three items.
The business side of cults remains unexplored and not on the radar of thought for many cult members. Cults love these facts.
Cults and their biggest supporters don't mind thinking of it as a version of "Dumb and Dumber".
Cults and their supporters hope it continues, and will use manipulation to facilitate this reality.
Always question when there are attempts to redirect and block these facts.
For the record, no I don't think C is Chid. I was in eXSY for about six years and also in a special insiders group that C ran parallel to eXSY. I know C about as well as anyone and I know F.A. The very debate over C's gender should give you an idea how secretive C is.
C only matters to the ex SY community because she holds the key to the eXSY group which has been the default rendezvous for people exiting SY. I have my own reasons for addressing C as 'she' which I can't reveal here. That aside, calling C 'she' does jolt your comfortable assumptions about her doesn't it?
Gorakh
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C is not Chidvilisananda. That I know for sure.
C is not who has written to this blog over the past few days.
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There were some on the exsy list who started wondering (offlist) if C was a woman a couple years ago, and a few of those came to the conclusion he (or she) was. Nothing whatsoever to do with GM. No conspiracy theory, just a hunch shared by a few people after years of assuming the opposite. Don't try to make something more than that out of it. C has never identified as male or female, which is his/her perfect right.
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All of this "offlist" speculation and chatting is in itself very indicitive of the clique mindset which can be found within cults.
Some people take a long time to heal from these behavioral habits. Some people don't heal.
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Don't try to make something more than that out of it. C has never identified as male or female, which is his/her perfect right.
---
Correct
I'm sure getting confused by how many "Anons" I am conversing with. Don't understand a thing about all this previous exSY debating. I was going to venture into that forum recently but when I saw I had to sign up with yet ANOTHER account, I just shrugged it off. I've too many accounts out there, from personal enrichment, career and consumer-related, as it is.
Anyway, just wanted to answer a former posting:
One of the Anons wrote in Regards to American Scientific Mind:
"strange, I read the whole article without a subscription. Now you need one to sign up. Sorry 'bout dat.
Please don't be sorry. You introduced me to a website and magazine that I want to include in my repetoire of reading and study. This zine looks like a really good one. Anything relating to human development, evolution, brain science, science in general, is fascinating and helpful to my ongoing understanding of life. As a veteran "outie", I have so many ongoing questions and interests about life on this planet, this universe. Never used to have much interest in the world when I was in SY, all too consumed by my own narcissistic "devotion" and "bliss" to care about the outside realms.
Rediscovery, new study, new interests, new or renewed hobbies & endeavors within my own humaness and the world--Another great bennie of having graduated from a lop-sided yoga.
Regards,
artsquiggle
Hi artsquiggle,
I posted about Scientific American. We share a very similar quest. I keep your thought provoking comments in mind. Will respond further to them in the more current Resurrection thread when able. Keeping it on topic of course. Nice to know someone of a similar frame of mind.
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