Tuesday, December 4, 2007

Is she? Or isn't she? Only her hairdresser and speechwriters know for sure!

SYDA has announced that those who attend the New Year's Day global audio satsang will receive "A Sweet Surprise". Speculation runs rampant along two lines:

Is Gurumayi going to reappear and give the Siddha Yoga Message for 2008?




Or, is the "sweet surprise" we have in store an "all day sucker" handed out as prasad?



Scroll over to the right and cast your vote in "Rituals" first-ever poll! Who knows? Maybe someone "sweet" is watching and waiting for us to say we expect her back!

PS. Apologies for the irreverence of this post. But, as we've all been toyed with for going on four years as to whether G will make a showing, I find a healthy sense of humor invaluable. Feel free to disagree in the comments to this post. But vote first! Believe me, South Fallsburgh is watching.

123 comments:

Anonymous said...

One thing for sure it is always a surprise. No "new" message the past 3 years was a surprise to me and now either way it goes would be a surprise to me! hehe

-Anon w/e

Del said...

If it was truly her in person, the PR machine would be in overdrive by now.

Anonymous said...

mmmmm... difficult choice... is the lollypop sugar free? ;-)
Yes, I agree that sense of humour is very much needed, maybe more than the 2 elements in the pictures (let me be also a little irreverent!)

Anonymous said...

Greetings SY Community,

Isn't it grand we are all here together on this blog? Reading, writing, lurking, quoting. And quite quickly generated. It's a force.

Reading here is a joy for me. One of my few currently. Truly on all the sites, there is light in this dark spiritual tunnel post SY for me and I thank everyone who puts they fingers to the keypads and reaches out.

After reading Seekher's post last evening just before sleep, I woke with this word on my mind. Infantilism. I thought I knew what it was, but googled. Careful if you do, some of it is NSFW. But the psychological analysis of it all is safe enough. Dan Shaw knows this body of knowledge. I won't post a link now, but I will be reading further in this field.

It is a lot of what happened to us in SY, especially to traumatised people. Easy prey. Here's what one expert says paraphrased:

You cannot be blamed at a moral, psycholocical, spiritual level for these needs. Decisions about these things reprepsent a child's longing for love at deep level, before they are capable of moral decision making. At a spiritual level this reaching out for love that a child does, represent the love of God in us. Hence the big deal about Christmas.

Evidence that we are/were being infantilzed in SY, brought from independence to dependence through a subtle regressive process. Guru Gita is a step by step manual.

"A Sweet Surprise!" Nothing more? This is how one communicates with children.

Love the JPG that Seekher posted of the Sucker. Funny the comment about "is it sugar free', even more ironic. It is actually a rainbow colored blanket rolled up to look like a lolly if not mistaken. A Quintessential transitional object. We had so many in SY. Everything, the whole freaking universe was a transitional object. We owed our existence to the guru. WTF! That is alot of freaking real estate.

Now I got my own. God Bless The Child That's Got His Own.

Here's one clip from my beginning research on this topic. Dan really is the go-to-guy on this. Lot's of Winnicott involved.

"What is a transitional object?
A transitional object is the love article of a child or adult that symbolizes some source of security. It could be in the form of a teddy bear, blanket, baby bottle, pacifier or diaper much like the baby blanket that the character Linus clung too in the comic strip “Peanuts.” It belongs to the child and is unchanging and dependable. Usually the transitional object is soft and cuddly with a pleasant smell that signifies mother or primary caretaker. Wright (1991b) explains that during the process of symbol formation, the space between infant and mother is filled by a transitional object that has the feel of the mother herself."

A sweet surprise sure. Lemon tree very pretty, but the fruit is impossible to eat.

Anonymous said...

"After reading Seekher's post last evening just before sleep, I woke with this word on my mind.

Infantilism.

'I thought I knew what it was, but googled. Careful if you do, some of it is NSFW. But the psychological analysis of it all is safe enough. Dan Shaw knows this body of knowledge. "

And...that is why so many in SY hate Dan and dump on him. He gives access to information that reveals the actual ingredients of the regression recipe---regression disguised as spiritual growth.

"Evidence that we are/were being infantilzed in SY, brought from independence to dependence through a subtle regressive process. Guru Gita is a step by step manual.

"A Sweet Surprise!" Nothing more? This is how one communicates with children."


Yes. Dead right. Ive seen this in other groups, too.

A very good way to evaluate any group is to sense whether people feel like a confederation of adults, (which doesnt exclude being able to enjoy and have fun!)

or...whether there is a subtle sort of 'kindergarten' atmosphere or 'Santa at the mall' vibe that is setting in.

And yes, whether the leader's handlers speak as if dealing with a group of eager children whose energies are there to be harnessed, but who must be constantly kept entertained, lest the wrong questions be asked, lest giggling break out in the wrong places.

And...lest one more honest than the others blurts out, 'The Emperor has no clothes!'

3rdeyeopen said...

I'm in between the pairs of opposites in this poll.
Also, not into polls in general.
I'm not feeling the craving to go, that's always been my barometer, not Pavlov's dogma. If gm is there or not, I'll find out the message later that day. Then I'll buy the book or tape if I wish to explore furthur ;)

There's childish and there's child-like. I tend to go for the latter. I have no judgements on this blog or community here. I find it to be sane and I'm finally speaking in my own voice without it being couched in a tapestry of rhetoric.

Want to add I was raised Jewish. I bring this up because my upbringing never included iconography to project myself onto. No Jesus, no gods or goddesses. I only see all of that as allegories to explain the unexplainable nuances of our minds and soul's journey on the earth in a body. So much of our current samskaras are still steeped and projected onto this iconography.

I only see bowing to the guru as bringing my own shaft of light (which I project into, not an image of the gurus) and concentrating it in the crown during meditation. I see it metaphorically: that everything is the guru, if the guru = the shakti, which is everything, so we are both the light and the dark and all hues inbetween. It's all about us, no excuses onto an image that 'made me do it" Growing up is about making wise choices.
I just wish to understand my own shadows and wish this for everyone too so there is no more suffering carrying all this icon bs around feeling bad about ourselves and projecting and acting out in all kinds of unhealthy ways to be loved and acknowledged.

I do however feel with young students getting used and raped my wish is to see all of that come into the light of day and clean it up. The CEO of the company is where the buck stops. Give it up already if there are secrets, it can not be healthy for the secret keepers either to live with that pressure.

Anonymous said...

>>>"At a spiritual level this reaching out for love that a child does, represent the love of God in us. Hence the big deal about Christmas."<<

Dear Anonymous,
As an aside, this was a wonderful short thing to read and think about this morning...and a way to resolve the yearly "oh geez! it's the season of glut and desire; how can I avoid it". I read this sentence about the universal longing for love and how Christmas is simply a manifestation of that and thought, "Ah, LOVE, what a wonderful thing to give everyone on my 'list' and to everyone I meet in this season"...a smile, patience in traffic, helping to unload someone's shopping cart, letting someone ahead of me in line, a genuine kindness and caring for all the incredibly stressed out people! Thank you VERY much for writing this!!! It really touched me very deeply.

"Evidence that we are/were being infantilzed in SY, brought from independence to dependence through a subtle regressive process. Guru Gita is a step by step manual."
To comment: the guru "system" as it is commonly practiced here is a recipe for infantilization...look at Ammachi's devotees with their Amma Dolls and listen to Karunamayi talk to "her babies" in a yearly address to devotees. Then remember the collections of "stuffies" and dolls in siddha yoga. To be a "devotee" is to become helpless baby, not so much if you are a genuine "disciple" of a guru (although this relationship is still prone to the same power imbalances). I have very rarely seen a genuine "guru/disciple" relationship either here or in India. In siddha yoga, although we called ourselves "disciples of the guru", we were really no such thing...we were "devotees". There is a HUGE difference..much of it having to do with what the guru offers the "disciple" as opposed to what the guru offers the "devotee". The guru-disciple relationship is one-on-one and "personal", in that it deals with the issues of each incarnated being very specifically, not "generically". You cannot appoint yourself a "disciple", as we were encouraged to do in siddha yoga. It's a formal arrangement, a kind of "contract" with its own "rules and regulations".If you are a devotee in a mass movement like siddha yoga (or any of the other "popular" guru venues here and in India), you are really vulnerable to the worst kind of manipulation and excess both from others and from your own mind...all in the name of " spirituality". Much of what you imagine you are practicing is created by your own mind responding emotionally to what it is experiencing. The "teachings" are what "teachings" are in virtually every tradition....very much open to interpretation. The "truth" cannot be really spoken so "teachings" are always
open-ended,
metaphoric and mysterious. This obviously opens the door to alot of problems...if you have several thousand people, all imagining that they "know" the "truth" based upon their own particular emotional reactions to ambivalent texts, an unavailable teacher in a path that claims the best thing is having a "living master", an "inner guru" who can be simply an intense "inner urge" compounded by visions and lights that make it seem real, swamis who, themselves, are psychologically unbalanced and an atmosphere of competition for the few "crumbs" of attention from the physical guru, you have a real recipe for disaster! I am speaking from experience here...having had all of the mental imaginings of "the inner guru who always speaks the truth", "understandings" fueled by visions and "dream messages", long hours of intense seva, an obsession with a second-hand and fanciful idea of "liberation" (mostly garnered from books about people like Ramakrishna, the correspondence course and "teaching stories" from talks in the mandap). I longed for what I thought was "god"; I longed for what I thought was "liberation".
It took a long time to really understand how fanciful ideas, visions, imagined messages and following the advice of misguided teachers can simply be another way of holding onto a false "identity", another way of avoiding the simplicity of what is...always available, "non-denominational", universally offered and sitting quietly behind what I imagined "spiritualtiy" to be.

best holiday season to all and thanks again, anonymous...
from...another anonymous

Joshua said...

SeekHer,

Thanks for your website. Your writing is beautiful and moving, and has been crucial to my own thought processes of late.

In terms of the NY's day webcast, the invitation on the SY site is pretty clear (in its own muddled and sometimes misleading SY way.) It's an audio podcast. This means its prerecorded, just like all the other audio satsangs. No video, no "in person" anything. The satsangs are recorded weeks or months in advance, so the idea of Gurumayi being "back" or "reappearing" doesn't really hold here.

If Gurumayi has recorded something for the audio satsang, maybe that's the "sweet surprise." In the intensive, the mc said at the end that he had a "sweet surprise" for us. After a big buildup, it turned out to be a pre-recording of Gurumayi singing part of a chant. Pretty disapointing, after he made a big deal of out of it.

My guess is that they'll do something like that, maybe have her record a few words or sing. So there really isn't anything like "being back." It's not live, it's not a broadcast.

According to the website announcement, the NY's program is when they announce the "focus of study" for 2008. It's not a message. I'm pretty sure there are no more messages. My guess is that the focus of study is Part 2 of the message talks, if the book is done yet.

So I guess what I'm saying is that this probably won't change anythying. In terms of where Gurumayi is, it's neither here nor there, pun intended. The question is, do you want to pay a hundred bucks to hear a short, taped message from Gurumayi, when audiotapes of her talks are available for about fifteen bucks? If part of her retirement is to teach us that everything is already in the published teachings, and that we are supposed to study the previous messages, then why pay a lot of money for "new" words?

If the point is that the Guru has already given us everything in the form of the teachings, then why do we need something expensive and new? Why not send out a message that tells us to study the new book? I think the whole "sweet suprise" thing is manipulative and not quite honest. One of the reasons I'm looking at my relationship to SY, thanks to your blog and Marta's blog.

I also like the comment, "A Sweet Surprise!" Nothing more? This is how one communicates with children." I hadn't thought of that, but it's so true.

Thank you for this blog and for your thoughful comments and moderating. Blessings to all on our various journeys.

-Joshua

Anonymous said...

"another way of avoiding the simplicity of what is...always available, "non-denominational", universally offered and sitting quietly behind what I imagined "spiritualtiy" to be."

December 5, 2007 11:30 AM

Greeks called it the Great Good I think. The Absolute that exists behind all is basically good. We don't owe that to SY. God gave it to everyone.

SeekHer said...

Joshua remarked:

"I also like the comment, "A Sweet Surprise!" Nothing more? This is how one communicates with children." I hadn't thought of that, but it's so true."

I liked the entire commentary that sentence was plucked from. I had never thought of SY in such a way, either, and yet it rings true for me as well. The cultivated regression into infantilism that the cult of the Guru encouraged and supported.

Well, we are all growing up now. Hopefully, as some have observed here, including Gurumayi. Although, as it has also been observed, true growth would necessitate a statement about where she is now (physically and mentally) and, critically, an admission of responsibility for all that went down on her watch.

What a healing that would be for us all! What a lesson! Unfortunately, even if she were so inclined, I doubt that foundation lawyers would allow such a cleaning of accounts.

Welcome, Joshua. I'm happy you are here with us. I happen to think your take on the "New Year's Message" is right on the money, pun intended. I'm glad you've come to a place where you can see with such clarity, and share it with us all.

3rdeyeopen said...

There is a parallel here to the macrocasm. Our country seems to be in a stupor of shopping, eating, overworking, yapping on cell phones, always busy. Oblivious to the destabilizing of our democracy. Our current president, to my third eye an active drinker, saying he thinks of us as 10 year olds that he needs to take care of. We are steeped in saviour/victimhood. Looking for leaders to do things *for* us rather than doing it for ourselves.

You know, there is lots of psy-ops out there, pre-meditated tricks in the media, to get us not functioning on a high caliber as humans. To control us. To distract us. I keep thinking of weird cult leaders and groups and wonder how some of them get funded, it would be very convenient to get everyone all blissed out, doing "projects" so they are not focused while they are being stripped of freedoms.

I resonate with Joshua, his connecting the dots seems logical. I'm not predicting any outcomes however. I don't know and happy to wait it out.

Just for fun, I got this adorable interactive menorah hanukkah card, it sounds like our chanting. Check it out.

http://www.bangitout.com/videos/viewvideo.php?a=389

Anonymous said...

Very good points Joshua. At the risk of sounding crazy I feel no big change on the horizon, though I hope I am wrong. I wish I could see a pic of Gurumayi with today's newspaper in her hands you know?

I have not heard anyone say they really knew this was coming....all the time with no word. Gurumayi usually dropped a cryptic hint in a talk or something if she was going to make a big change. It leaves me... uneasy,sad.

I also agree with 3rdeye's point. I always imagined I was bowing first to the universal guru, secondarily to the form. Sure I have personal love for her, but I was not there to attain that. I was also very terrified of her for reasons unknown to myself. Fire of the Guru I spose.

Might if a add an offshoot to one of the points made? Childish verses childlike? I WAS one of the people who would purposely walk through the main building on seva breaks to hope to see Gurumayi. And I would follow her around if she was out. I have heard people here and on other sites saying people like that are pathetic, hehe. But it was not like that to me. It was the symbol of the Guru nearby which allowed me to feel some reverence for higher consciousness, which I built upon for my time at home the rest of the year. Many people do the same with Nityananda's statue. I admit it was highly manufactured state, but over time it moved my normal state a little higher. Did she have anything to do with it? I am not sure and it does not matter, but I think it is much healthier to say, No she did not. She is the representation of a higher ideal, if in fact the Holy Spirit of God was coming through her and affecting me that would just be a bonus, the real power is within. Wanted to explain that for myself.

Anon w/e

Anonymous said...

Hello 3rdeye,

Thanks for making connection to being treated like children, behaving like children to the larger world beyond SY. Rejuveniles are a niche market. Men in Dr. Seuss pj's, women wearing Hello Kitty. That part is fun, but the larger context puts us at risk of letting others do our heavy lifting for us. That makes us very weak. We were letting GM do all the heavy lifting for us. Can't blame her for checking out on that.

SY created this template for worship. They still think they can run the program. "A Sweet Surprise!" for $100 bucks is what a negligent mothers does for her kids. Is she taking cues from Brittany on motherhood? The name Gurumayi is no longer applicable. That is ok with me.

I am convinced after long reflection on personal experience that there is a real person there and that person is good. I really think that. Got on the wrong bus that's all. Like a lot of us.

She is definitely NOT divine, not to be worshipped as God. God and Guru are not one and the same, in this case anyway. For SY to try to prop the relic Chidvilas up in this way is lame. They would go far better to get everyone to fess up, get real and talk like real human beings to each other. Stop this false posture. It's ridiculous. I feel sorry for those who feel compelled to be 'yes' men or women. Glad it is not me.

Is this a Gordian Knot?

Anonymous said...

3rd Eye,

You said "Our current president, to my third eye an active drinker, saying he thinks of us as 10 year olds that he needs to take care of."

Request: Can you find me the quote where W says he thinks of all of us as 10-year-olds he needs to take care of? I'd really, really, really, REALLY like to see the source of the quote where he said that.

My point being, don't say he said something if he didn't actually say it. Frankly I think you made it up. As for his drinking, I get the impression your third eye may have a cataract in it. Word has it among people I know who know him that he's still a teetotaler.

Find me some proof or please stop making statements you can't back up. (Trying to find a polite way to ask you to put up or shut up, bubeleh.)

Anonymous said...

Hello Seekher

Re: Gordian Knot and SY

Food for thought, some parallels I think for me to chew on. Ropes are big symbols in spirituality aren't they?

In ancient Macedonia thinking was much the same as it is today. Little kingdoms fought bitterly for their lands. Pretenders rose and fell. No one had vision. None had a plan. All was struggle. Except for one–one gained his rule easily.

He was Midas, the poor homeowner. Day by day Midas struggled just to get by. Each day was a "challenge" for Midas. He lived in a marshy area of Asia Minor then called Phrygia. Lore has it that years of civil unrest and aimless wandering of the Phrygians had led the elders to call a meeting of the high council to decide which warring faction would rule next. An ancient oracle had foretold that a man with a waggon would eventually come and end their constant quarreling. Midas wandered into town with his ox-cart while the high council met, discussing the oracle’s prediction. The oracle’s prediction had come true. Midas was appointed king.

As a reminder of his good fortune, to thank the gods for his rule, and to celebrate the end of aimless wandering for the Phrygians, Midas erected a shrine and dedicated his waggon to Zeus. Instead of being yoked to an ox, Midas placed his waggon in the center of the acropolis yoked to a pole with a large knot. Curiously, the knot was an intricate and complex Turkish knot, having no ends exposed. Hundreds of tightly interwoven thongs of cornel-bark made the knot an impressive centerpiece for the shrine. There it remained as an important symbol for the Phrygians.

Month after month the bark hardened, and stories grew up around the shrine. It was eventually moved and housed near the temple of Zeus Basileus in an ancient city called Gordium, ruled by Midas’ father Gordius. Gordius, being the proud father that he was, encouraged the lore about his son’s now famous shrine. People speculated as to its purpose. Most regarded it as a curious puzzle. Eventually, an oracle foretold that whoever loosed the Gordian Knot would lord over the whole of Asia. The lore grew and grew.

Over the years people living near Gordium looked upon their puzzle relic with great pride. It became quite a tourist attraction and generated lots of revenue for local business. Residents considered it the duty of every wanderer to visit their shrine and attempt to solve their puzzle. They regarded it as extremely unlucky for visitors to leave their city without trying to loose the knot.

No one knows how many visitors attempted the puzzle of the Gordian Knot. One thing is certain. Only one man solved it. We know him as Alexander The Great. He did go on to conquer the world and rule all of Asia. Alexander considered his victory over the Gordian Knot the most decisive battle he ever fought.

http://www.gordiansolutions.com/TheKnot.htm

Anonymous said...

"She is the representation of a higher ideal, if in fact the Holy Spirit of God was coming through her and affecting me that would just be a bonus, the real power is within. Wanted to explain that for myself."

Anon w/e

December 6, 2007 1:23 AM

Thinking like that would keep one intact granted. I am envious of your maturity in reconceiving your guru. I need more from her. Was close to physical guru. Loved her as a person and a concept. Those with a lot of history about the real person should be listened to. Not just the one's canting the SY non-speak. Wouldn't people want the real history recorded? What good is archiving half truths? The whole story told honestly will help and heal everyone.

Hope SY is archiving Marta's and all the blogs and post SY sites at Muktobhoda. That is what real historians, real librarians would do.

Anonymous said...

"We were letting GM do all the heavy lifting for us. Can't blame her for checking out on that."

I would bet that something like this may have happened to the three Christian clergy whose sudden traumatic disappearances I described above.

All of them were talented, and each in his or her own way, charismatic. Its possible that they needed the emotional supplies and adoration that they elicited from those who came to rely on them to do the 'heavy lifting'.

But these clergy also had to work to keep their admirers soothed and satisfied.

Leaders who behave this way, driven to over work may often be driven by personal issues.

When young and healthy, a spiritual leader who is generating charisma, running a ponzi pyramid scheme using shakti rather than money, has to work very hard to do all the juggling needed to keep people happy, worshipful and get the energy supplies needed to keep going.

But if that person gets older, loses some vital percentage of health and vitality or if personal stressors suddenly pile up faster than they can be manipulated away---then all at once, the juggler begins dropping balls---and may find him or herself drained, overwhelmed in burnout--and without the energy or the adult intimacy skills needed to confess 'I am exhausted'
to say to colleagues' 'I am breaking and need help' or to oversee a leave taking process so that followers can get an explanation, and the leavetaking slowly managed so that no trauma or shock results.

In the case of a guru, who is supposedly perfect, how can he or she, despite being in the vehicle of a human body, admit to burnout
or find any friends or colleagues?

The guru job is horrible. You have total power, zero accountability--and no friends to call you on your problems--or help you when you're worn out.

(This is not to take away from the need for SY to do justice and clean house. This remains to be done. Its meant to be a reflection on how devotees not only lose out, but that in the long run, even the guru gets dehumanized.)

How can a person who is dehumanized by his or her leadership role help us become human?

Arthur Deikman a psychiatrist, has reflected on these groups. He said in his book, The Wrong Way Home, its tempting to look for someone who will do the driving while we, as trustful kids, fall asleep in the back seat.

That works fine as long as the person at the wheel knows how to drive and isnt drunk on money, sex, drugs or power.

Deikman has an article here, old but good, on evaluating spiritual teachers and groups. The trouble is, when we are desperate, disoriented, or in love, this stuff doesnt make sense at the time.

But it is still worth reading, later on.

http://www.deikman.com/eval.html

(a small sample from the article)

"Counterfeit coins are accepted because real coins exist".

So we are left with a pressing questions, "How can one separate the genuine from the counterfeit?", "How can one judge a spiritual or utopian group and its leader?"

The first step in answering the questions is to realize that confused with intimations of the spiritual are longings and impulses derived from childhood.

Thus, although a person may wish to find meaning and certainty, to serve God and humanity, he or she may also want to be taken care of, to find a home, to be praised and admired, protected and loved. **These latter yearnings are seldom acknowledged because adults are not supposed to be motivated by them.**

Nevertheless, in seeking to gratify those wishes we are drawn to join groups that seem to be new families and to accept leaders as surrogate parents. Covertly, the "bliss" that is sought and frequently experienced is that of children who have been rescued from uncertainty and responsibilities, who have found a home.

Furthermore, we are social beings and derive benefits from joining with others. Groups can provide a gratifying sense of belonging, support and purpose while leaders can teach and inspire. As I will show, these aims may be important and valuable but they are not spiritual, no matter how pious their outward presentation. Correspondingly, our motivations for joining a spiritual or utopian group may be other than we realize or wish to know. Detecting such covert purposes enables us to evaluate a group's legitimacy."

My commentary on this bit of Deikman's article is that these hidden longings from childhood are treated differently by a true spiritual project versus one that is counterfeit.

A counterfeit project will exploit these hidden childhood longings and teach us to further confuse them with spiritual aspirations and increse their impact on us, regressing us further. (and often such groups will devalue discernment by devaluing intellect--something commonplace in New Age, spiriutal and even Indian spiritual rhetoric!)

A genuine spiritual group and teacher will support discernment, assisting us to see the difference between our genuine spiriutal aspirations and the childhood aspects of ourselves that we find embarrassing and assist us to become conscious of these--sympathetically conscoiusu and how to respect our inner children, but relate consciously to these longings--not zone out in them and get swept into regression.

Other articles are here

http://www.deikman.com/cultpsych.html

Anonymous said...

Right on Joshua! Ditto, ditto, ditto....you are reading our minds!!!

Anonymous said...

"A genuine spiritual group and teacher will support discernment, assisting us to see the difference between our genuine spiriutal aspirations and the childhood aspects of ourselves that we find embarrassing and assist us to become conscious of these--sympathetically conscoiusu and how to respect our inner children, but relate consciously to these longings--not zone out in them and get swept into regression.

Other articles are here

http://www.deikman.com/cultpsych.html

December 6, 2007 10:15 AM"

Dear Anonymous,

I would have to search a long time to find advice as tailored to my needs as you have provided. Also thanks for the compassion in understanding that SY attracted people like the author of Amazing Grace. Some of us are seriously hurting and have adjusted ourselves to the deformed sense of self that came from absorbing SY culture and philosophy. As that is teased away from our authentic selves, there is some new trauma. No one wants that. I appreciate all comments that tread lightly in this area.

I remember when GM had us change the words, 'that saved a wretch like me' to 'that saved a soul like me.' This glossing over, improving on self incriminating self talk, I took for compassion at the time. Now it looks like the beginning of not wanting to get her hands dirty in the real stuff of our lives.

SY Lite. That is a product I never signed on for.

3rdeyeopen said...

Hey anon 9:43am,
I heard GWB say it with my own ears on the radio. If you do not believe me that's not my problem. I am not your researcher, go find the quote on your own or pay me to do your research. Not born to work for you. Besides, I don't like your tone. Believe what you wish, but the dude is always slurring and looks trashed ALOT. Go to Democratic Underground, they post tons of photos of GW looking pretty lit up and hung over and they talk it about too. Tell those friends of yours who know him to look at DU too.

BTW, disinformationalists ALWAYS ask a truth seeker to present evidence and go finding links to distract and annoy.

Here's links to their nasty bag of tricks
http://www.benfrank.net/disinfo/

http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html

PS Where are those photos of Nit with Mukt and Gm? Where's the links to those photos?

Anonymous said...

"PS Where are those photos of Nit with Mukt and Gm? Where's the links to those photos?"

3rd eye, what on EARTH are you talking about?

Anonymous said...

Seekher,

Wondering if US politics is too divisive and inflammatory an issue for this blog when it's really supposed to be focused on discussing Siddha Yoga?

Anonymous said...

"I heard GWB say it with my own ears on the radio."

OK, when did this take place and on what channel/station? I'd be interested in researching that comment. Knowing a timeframe and which media carrier would help with that.

Frankly, I think a condescending comment like that by GWB would have made national news and all of us would have heard about it. Hence my disbelief.

"the dude is always slurring and looks trashed ALOT"

He looks trashed a lot? And slurs?
Granted the guy can't talk his way out of a paper bag, and is not someone I'd identify as a "deep thinker" but I have yet to see him look "trashed", as you say...to me the word "trashed" means someone is so drunk, it's totally obvious. I'm not a particular fan of GWB but have yet to see him comport himself the way you've described.

As for going to "Democratic Underground" for photographis "proof", such an organization would have a clear political agenda and I wouldn't put it past a political organization affiliated with either party to photoshop the heck out of any political leader from the opposing side to make them look bad...or the reverse to the leaders they support to make them look better.

"Not born to work for you."

No, you weren't born to work for me. Yet if you're unwilling to provide backup for your own claims, it's you who looks like the "disinformationalist", not me. I'm simply asking you to back up a claim if you're going to make it.

This is like Siddha Yoga - - I'm not willing to believe whatever I hear anymore. Same principle applies to SY as your political statements.

Frankly, I don't like your tone, either. You're the one who strayed off the topic of Siddha Yoga into politics. If you open that door of political discourse, don't be surprised when someone of a differing political view challenges you on it.

What I don't understand is why people don't just "move on" from GWB already. The guy only has 13 more months in office anyway. He's essentially history, a lame duck. Hating the guy at this point in time is such a waste of energy, since he's basically become an afterthought.

Anonymous said...

Just my inner feelings...

The last time I saw GM was at the Masonic Temple on top of Nob Hill in SF a few years ago near birthday. I suspect drug addiction to pain medicine due to GM's spinal problems. I had studied SY since 1981.

She seemed on drugs to me that day. She had spoke of her back problems before and I notice her back was too stiff over the years. The spine is suggested to be erect, not stiff.

Where is she? Hard core drug addict from possibly morphine due to spinal pain.

This is what I think and feel...anybody else know?

3rdeyeopen said...

Adding this for Anon 9:43 Dahlink,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.phpaz=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3355939

A link to GW and his folks all tied up with Rev Moon, one of the biggest cult leaders we've got. Moon owns the Washington Times and influences our government in a big way.

Did you know that Moon was coronated in our congressional offices? That he influences Ma and Pa Bush?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61932-2004Jun22.html

Teetotaler my @$$.

Anonymous said...

Regarding our Prez...
I wonder...here's U-Tube video; note the ending where he is using Laura as a walking stick.

http://tinyurl.com/3e3brr

If he is on the sauce again, well please pray for him! And the nation.

Peace and Love

Epi

SeekHer said...

"Seekher,

Wondering if US politics is too divisive and inflammatory an issue for this blog when it's really supposed to be focused on discussing Siddha Yoga?"

I completely agree. I've let this thread run on today because I;m at work and not able to really monitor the playground! Let's please refocus on SY and the divisive, inflammatory issues we all originally came here seeking to discuss, folks. Thank you.

3rdeyeopen said...

Hi,

My apologies to SeekHer who runs a class act.

I'm not a researcher for anyone but myself.
If someone is intrigued and questions let them research the phrase on Google. Take my word or not, not caring who thinks I'm a disinformationalist. I do not take orders, especially when a request is served as an order. I'm in no one's cult, I think and speak for me. I stand in my own power, In the same vein we are questioning the Guru and her Guru's words and actions against reality and when the apologists for them come up, I do the research myself on what they say. So I seel all sides, 360 degrees.

I brought up GW and politics because py-ops, cia infiltrators have been around for decades. These so called cult groups start somewhere and they might just start as psy-ops to keep the body of society in a stupor to control them. Alot of people lose their highest motivations running away from themselves and projecting onto an unhealthy icon/cult leader/celebrity/ politician and never actualize their desired purpose while living in a body. They give their power away. I think it's all connected. It just makes logical sense. I'm no one's enabler, the president looks, speaks and acts toasted ALOT. Our spiritual leaders speak one thing and do another, I am no enabler to that either. Either we call it out or we enable. Downtalk the politic blog all you want, but there is free speech going on there with diverse points of view.
Isn't that we are discussing? A cult has no freedom of speech, enabling the cult leader is enabling, not a healthy place to be. Go look for yourselves if you think I"m bluffing. That's how I learn, I research.

When I read about Joe Don Loony on LSY I was like wha??????? but I googled his name and article came up about him and his years before Mukt and how he was a sociopath, always looking to be a bully,
and real mean. Why would this person be a spiritual leader's bodyguard? Was Mukt reforming him? By the reports of former devotees JDL was still a scary sociopath doing the same things at the ashram. This was insanity, not yoga. I'm so tired of the denial, it's really gross to me and it makes my mind feel twisted that people actually act like this and people follow them like blind sheep and big babies.

My analogy was our SY world to the collective. The same victim/ savior behavior be it cult or politics.

Anonymous said...

"No one knows how many visitors attempted the puzzle of the Gordian Knot. One thing is certain. Only one man solved it. We know him as Alexander The Great. He did go on to conquer the world and rule all of Asia.

"Alexander considered his victory over the Gordian Knot the most decisive battle he ever fought."

The Buddhist text, Path of Purification almost seems to describe this in the following verses:

'The inner tangle and the outer tangle-‘This generation is entangled in a tangle.

‘And so I ask of Gotama this question:

‘Who succeeds in disentangling this tangle?’ (end of quote from the Buddhist text)

My suggested answer is those untangling the tangle are part of the ritual of disenchantment.

PS Am starting to read Roberto Calasso's book, Ka.

Seek Her: Thank you. When taken in hand, it looks like just a book.

Opened, and read for me at least, it turned into a mirror and I found my life and 3 generations of my family's life blazing right back at me, merged with the stories of India.

I read and was being read by this book. Then again, I am rather sensitized these days. Other people might not react this way at all.

'Ka' is like the best bittersweet chocolate in the world--you begin by thinking you want to devour the whole thing, and instead, are humbled into taking it in small nibbles, because it is so rich, so complex and just has to be savored bit by little bit.

Note: Ka by Roberto Calasso, was originally written and published in Italian and unless you are lucky enough to read the language, you must be sure to request the English translation, whether looking for it at your library, or purchasing a copy.

Librarian/Zennie.

Anonymous said...

Re: "Just my inner feelings...

The last time I saw GM was at the Masonic Temple on top of Nob Hill in SF a few years ago near birthday. I suspect drug addiction to pain medicine due to GM's spinal problems. I had studied SY since 1981.

She seemed on drugs to me that day. She had spoke of her back problems before and I notice her back was too stiff over the years. The spine is suggested to be erect, not stiff.

Where is she? Hard core drug addict from possibly morphine due to spinal pain.

This is what I think and feel...anybody else know?"

December 6, 2007 3:05 PM

Wow this stuck my heart strings in a big throb. This could entirely be true and untrue at the same time. Like it happens in phases, always a struggle. I feel compassion and alot of it. Human beings are so frail. This is a real person to me. No Shadenfreude. Just glad not born to be a guru. Imagine it, think about it, as someone use to say.

Kicking any pharmaceutical is a real hard road. Luckily there are alternatives, but they take time. Too bad there were so many docs willing to write the scripts. Luckily suffering leads to awareness, if suffered with the right frame of mind. Godspeed.

Pax-Nemesis, we all go through it damn it.

Anonymous said...

Re: " When I read about Joe Don Loony on LSY I was like wha??????? but I googled his name and article came up about him and his years before Mukt and how he was a sociopath, always looking to be a bully,
and real mean. Why would this person be a spiritual leader's bodyguard? Was Mukt reforming him? By the reports of former devotees JDL was still a scary sociopath doing the same things at the ashram. This was insanity, not yoga. I'm so tired of the denial, it's really gross to me and it makes my mind feel twisted that people actually act like this and people follow them like blind sheep and big babies.

My analogy was our SY world to the collective. The same victim/ savior behavior be it cult or politics."

December 6, 2007 9:45 PM


Hello 3rd Eye,

Your comments are always worth trying to follow even if difficult because for me your words posted here have helped advance my awareness about a path I dedicated over half my life to. Thank you for your remarks.

Folks in SY become easily enthralled with charismatic types. I am really glad you mention Joe Don Loony. There were many similar characters who carried a mystique. A little dangerous, etc. How all this became part of a spiritual path is a story still being told on all these webpages.

Anonymous said...

SeekHer,

I apologize for the off topic post. Curiosity about the previous posts on this thread got the better of me and so I did some online research and came up with that particular link. You can take it down if you wish, but still believe that Bush needs our prayers!

Peace and Love

Epi

Anonymous said...

3rdeyeopen said...

"PS Where are those photos of Nit with Mukt and Gm? Where's the links to those photos?"

Do you mean "young Nit" as opposed to Bade Baba? Actually there is one on a website belonging to Gurumayi's brother.

See this link, bottom of page:
http://www.babasfootsteps.com/meetbaba.htm

Actually I saw young Nit recently. Some of us are mad at him, the way you are mad at Gurumayi. He's a nice person, but there's something weird about his energy.

As for the "sweet surprise" I think it will be something simple, in keeping with the simplicity and current "quietness" of Siddha Yoga.

Anonymous said...

I think some of you guys are so caught up in criticism and mockery, that you forgot about the good things you received from Siddha Yoga. Surely some of you must have experienced genuine love, made some real long-lasting friends, and learned some useful skills.

Anonymous said...

Joshua said...

In terms of the NY's day webcast, the invitation on the SY site is pretty clear (in its own muddled and sometimes misleading SY way.) It's an audio podcast.

This means its prerecorded, just like all the other audio satsangs. No video, no "in person" anything.

The satsangs are recorded weeks or months in advance, so the idea of Gurumayi being "back" or "reappearing" doesn't really hold here.

If Gurumayi has recorded something for the audio satsang, maybe that's the "sweet surprise."

In the intensive, the mc said at the end that he had a "sweet surprise" for us. After a big buildup, it turned out to be a pre-recording of Gurumayi singing part of a chant...

My guess is that they'll do something like that, maybe have her record a few words or sing. So there really isn't anything like "being back." It's not live, it's not a broadcast.

*** ***

K here...

This is my instinct as well.

If the poll had included a third option, GM "present" but only in some carefully pre-recorded form, I would have cast my vote there.

As for the comment regarding Part 2 of Sadhana of the Heart, I have learned to watch SY drag out the use of its undersold "Tools" as long as possible before introducing a new "Study Tool" for the New Year.

The last "Study Manual" for Sadhana of the Heart was pretty chunky. I'd hazard a guess that a lot of devotees didn't complete it or didn't understand it very well.

So my suspicion is that SY will continue to recycle "Study Focus" materials for more than one year if they need to sell off a big inventory of paper product, perhaps sprucing them up with a revised or a secondary "tool" (like the recording of Kundalini Stavaha) to make their old thing seem new.

I can see V2 of Sadhana of Heart withheld until at least June 24 of next year or even longer, and Study Tools to go with it delayed until at least another several months. Maybe even years.

Those who follow the paths of the planets know that Mars is Retrograde this season, favoring a rehash of old things rather than an advance on new things.

If there is a "return" of GM's input to the satsang it will be minimal at best.

GM and the people who suppoprt her are no dummies Surely they know all these blogs have sprung up, one posted by someone who used to work in her broadcast office (Yes? did I get that right SeekHer?).

She doesn't dare make a public appearance anymore. She knows the blogsphere would eat her alive if she did. The old version of SY - something I actually find myself missing this year for some sad reason - it's over.

3rdeyeopen said...

I am NOT angry at gm, I have said that many times. I just cannot tolerate bs artists but feel that mostly from my experiences with the sevites, not the guru.

Why?
Truthfully, now that I no longer attend weekly satsangs in over a year NO ONE from the community has called or emailed to see if I am ok. No one calls to satsang over the phone. Your comment makes me realize that I made one real friend in SY. She dropped out of SY and will not let us get into any discussions about SY either. I'm an gentle lamb compared to her about SY. She feels damaged. I feel confused, I never could tolerate the living quarters at SMA so I avoided spending alot of time there. I would do occasional day trips, a few one nights. The traveling back and forth felt like time wasted out of my studio and my dreams were telling me that too. I did a faithful weekly seva at my center for about 6 years and was abused by my seva supervisor and ostrasized by her lackies. The most obnoxious shutdown judgemental people in my center were MCing weekly spouting the rhetoric that made me cringe from hypocrisy. I watched the sevites use favor in lieu of seva; without owning personal power in the world, they used seva as bargaining chips for climbing up the ladder to be a part of the SY "inner circle".
Why would I choose such people as my friends?
I can do alot better than this. And I have since I stopped going. Have alot more fun too.
I still do the practices in the way that makes me feel like doing them. No dogma.

I once saw a photo of baby Nity jr and gm as a little girl on that site, that photo makes me feel much compassion for gm. I asked that question because like a communist country SY has removed Nit jr from the photos and the records, that kind of censorship's not sitting well with me. Also, Nity jr may seem "nice" but the dude was banging the ladies back in the day so he's OUT as a leader for my tastes. It sounds like most of the male leaders cannot keep their penis in their pants and that's a turn off.

Everyone at this blog has their own reason why they are disenchanted. I'd rather not be an homogenized pasturized lump. I like hearing different diverse voices untangling.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

I think some of you guys are so caught up in criticism and mockery, that you forgot about the good things you received from Siddha Yoga. Surely some of you must have experienced genuine love, made some real long-lasting friends, and learned some useful skills.

December 7, 2007 6:12 AM

K responds:

While this may or may not be true of some of the people who have left SY or are in the process of leaving SY, I can say with certainty that it's not true of me.

During the more flamboyant periods of my exit process I have definitely run the gamut of negative emotions -and- emotings with regard to GM and SY. But that was just a stage of my healing, like when your hand swells after an injury that eventually heals, and the hand returns to normal size.

But here's where I'm at just for this one day:

I am deeply grateful for a number of things I gained from being involved in SY for many, many years. I miss some of them badly.

These include a number of wonderful experiences that I knew I would have from the moment I stepped onto the grounds of the South Fallsburg campus, or into a carefully prepared local SY Center hall, or at the moment that I heard the first harmonium tone of my daily recitation of the Guru Gita.

I miss many of the people I knew as a result of my SY experience too, people I know I will never see again because our gathering place has been shut down, people who drifted away from my local center as they came to terms with the reality of MUK's failings and GM's necessary collusion with them.

I miss my spiritual path, which has become something unrecognizable to me from what I encountered when I went to my first satsangs in 1978 and 1983 respectively.

But most of all I miss having the feeling that I could tell anyone in my life with whom I chose to share myself sincerely that I was involved in a spiritual path with both integrity and heart.

I miss saying Muktananda's name without a shred of anxiety or shame. I miss bowing to his picture with love, respect and profound joy. I miss looking into the eyes of the photo of Gurumayi, beautiful Gurumayi, and promising her that I would continue to work on my ambivalence toward her and her loving devotees, promising to become more like the things in her that my friends loved and admired in her, promising to become a better person by removing the blockages in my heart that kept me from adoring her,as they did, without reservation.

I miss the sound of her voice because it had become the most familiar of voices in my life, the one that continually pointed me toward a God/dess I felt I could understand, one that I believed I could trust to cleanse me and liberate me from myself.

I miss her laughter, I miss the laughter and the love of the people who gathered with her in the main hall I became used visiting at the start of every New Year.

I miss her singing when it was good, because sometimes it really was good, though sometimes it was hideous.

I miss some of the chants at that ashram which were hands down the best concerts I ever attended. I miss singing at that ashram, and I miss playing my harmonium at my local center or in my home, remembering those chants with ecstasy.

I miss falling in love with GM or the idea of GM over and over again, not being willing to admit I was doing so, putting my faith in her over and over again, hoping over and over again that someone would rescue me from realizing that something I could never accept in my spiritual role model might be true of the man who put her in the chair I had become used to adoring.

I miss the diaphanous film of illusions I worshiped, the ones that became the "teachings" and the "path" I followed and collectively called the God of My Understanding, the ones that I relied on to stay sober and serene, to save my own life from the cravings and the character defects that threatened my life as a recovering addict every day of my life.

I miss believing that if I surrendered myself to Siddha Yoga I would have a spiritual experience that could liberate me from my addiction at its very roots.

I miss everything I loved in SY because over time I learned that the things I loved were all lies, and lies are the temporary stories we tell each other in order to hide from the real story we fear to tell, but must discover if we are ever to embrace the truth about ourselves.

I hope Christopher will not mind that I went on at length in his blog this way.

I just had to say this to a readership that might understand how I feel.

SeekHer said...

"I hope SeekHer will not mind that I went on at length in his blog this way. I just had to say this to a readership that might understand how I feel."

K--not only do I not mind, I am deeply grateful for your having done so. Your list of things you miss about SY is, I suspect, only a partial one. Because I share most of yours and have many more besides. One that is particularly on my mind at this time of year is the memory of sitting in the Shakti Mandap on Christmas Eve, as 1,500 voices sang "Silent Night" and just being wracked with sobbing out of intense joy and happiness. I used to cry out of joy and gratitude often when I practiced SY, and I can't remember the last time that happened. I miss that more than I can say, because it seems to me to be one of the most beautiful things I have attained in this life.

Not that SY "owns" this. Just that I experienced it reliably as a result of my practice and now must find it again, elsewhere. Somehow.

A wonderful new thread to start would be one of gratitude for what we received from SY, even if it must be mixed with sadness for what we've lost.

Anonymous said...

3rd Eye,

You posted a link to the Washington Post, also stating that Sun Myung Moon influences the Bushes. From the link you posted, I read the following:

"At the March 23 ceremony in the Dirksen Senate Office Building, Rep. Danny K. Davis (D-Ill.) wore white gloves and carried a pillow holding an ornate crown that was placed on Moon's head. The Korean-born businessman and religious leader then delivered a long speech saying he was "sent to Earth . . . to save the world's six billion people. . . . Emperors, kings and presidents . . . have declared to all Heaven and Earth that Reverend Sun Myung Moon is none other than humanity's Savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent."

Details of the ceremony -- first reported by Salon.com writer John Gorenfeld -- have prompted several lawmakers to say they were misled or duped by organizers. Their complaints prompted a Moon-affiliated Web site to remove a video of the "Crown of Peace" ceremony two days ago, but other Web sites have preserved details and photos.

Moon, 85, has been controversial for years. Renowned for officiating at mass weddings, he received an 18-month prison sentence in 1982 for tax fraud and conspiracy to obstruct justice. In a 1997 sermon, he likened homosexuals to "dirty dung-eating dogs."

Among the more than 300 people who attended all or part of the March ceremony was Sen. Mark Dayton (D-Minn.), who now says he simply was honoring a constituent receiving a peace award and did not know Moon would be there. "We fell victim to it; we were duped," Dayton spokeswoman Chris Lisi said yesterday.

Other lawmakers who attended or were listed as hosts felt the same, she said. "Everyone I talked to was furious," she said. With Minnesotans demanding to know whether Dayton is a follower of Moon, Lisi said, the senator persuaded the St. Paul Pioneer Press to write an article allowing him to reply."

In other words, one congressperson (a democrat, I'll point out) coronated Moon and the rest felt they'd been duped and invited to something that turned into an event totally different from what they signed on for.

This doesn't equal all of congress (meaning the House AND the Senate) coronating Moon, it equals one congressperson who thinks Moon's his personal king trying to use congressional space to coronate him and the rest of the congresspeople are all embarrassed about it. You read WAY too much into that situation.

As for Moon influencing "Ma & Pa Bush", which I interpret as meaning President Bush #41 and his wife Barbara, the Post article makes no mention of that so I'm assuming you either read it on some other politically-motivated media source or once again, you're making it up...tossing out assertions without backup, hoping we'll just simply believe your @$$.

I'm simply going to skip over any of your posted comments going forward. You toss out too many unsubstantiated political assertions that are totally off topic to SY, for my tastes.

-Three eyes shut to 3rd Eye

Anonymous said...

seeker said

A wonderful new thread to start would be one of gratitude for what we received from SY, even if it must be mixed with sadness for what we've lost.

December 7, 2007 9:21 AM

Yes that would be good. Go for it. There is really no other place to discuss 'the good things'.

Anon 70

SeekHer said...

"too many unsubstantiated political assertions that are totally off topic to SY"

I hope we've all had our say on political matters. They are off-topic here. Want to give everyone a heads up that any further comments that discuss political topics, whether in whole or in part, won't be published. Surely, the Daily Kos or Drudge Report will welcome your thoughts on these matters, depending on your affiliations and inclinations.

Anonymous said...

SeekHer said:

A wonderful new thread to start would be one of gratitude for what we received from SY, even if it must be mixed with sadness for what we've lost.

****

K responds

Would you be open to starting a new blog post to launch such a discussion? The comments on this post are getting kind of long. :)

**

Oh and...

The last comment I put in your blog almost felt like a blog entry itself. I have more things like that to share. Maybe they fit in here and maybe they don't.

I am trying to sort out whether to post them in the comments of this blog, or to submit them for publication in Marta's blog, or post them in a totally new blog, for my own writing.

If I do that the focus of my blog would be on the connection between addiction in its many disguises and my experience of SY.

It's also possible that the post millennium SY community can only support a handful of blogs at this time.

I'd like to ask for some feedback on this idea: if I start another blog would people here read it? If I post at length in this blog would that feel appropriate and respectful of you, Chris, and the people who gather in this place?

Oh and BTW if you worked in media or technical seva in SF I think there's a chance that I know you. I won't say more because I respect your desire to remain anonymous in your own blog.

Still, if you did serve SMA in that capacity I can understand why you feel so bereft about GM's sudden departure, and I can only imagine what you must have felt as you began your research into the real story behind the SY illusion.

Lastly, in your profile you say you make your way in the world today as a copy writer, "for [your] sins".

If you don't mind my saying so, I believe you are an expression of God's grace in my life because I so appreciate your skill with the written medium.

If the practical use of your talent is a penance for your sins, know you've been forgiven for all of them, at least by me.

K.

Anonymous said...

"SeekHer said...
"too many unsubstantiated political assertions that are totally off topic to SY"

I hope we've all had our say on political matters. They are off-topic here. Want to give everyone a heads up that any further comments that discuss political topics, whether in whole or in part, won't be published. Surely, the Daily Kos or Drudge Report will welcome your thoughts on these matters, depending on your affiliations and inclinations.

December 7, 2007 10:45 AM"

Thank you, Seekher. Sure hope this will help people keep the discussion focused on what this blog is about.

Anonymous said...

"'Ka' is like the best bittersweet chocolate in the world--you begin by thinking you want to devour the whole thing, and instead, are humbled into taking it in small nibbles, because it is so rich, so complex and just has to be savored bit by little bit.

Note: Ka by Roberto Calasso, was originally written and published in Italian and unless you are lucky enough to read the language, you must be sure to request the English translation, whether looking for it at your library, or purchasing a copy."

Librarian/Zennie.

December 6, 2007 10:43 PM

You are one top notch hot spit writer Librarian Zennie. You also have knowledge I can use. The only kind that frees according to one the first shiva sutras.

Happy trails to you.

Anonymous said...

SeekHer said:

... the memory of sitting in the Shakti Mandap on Christmas Eve, as 1,500 voices sang "Silent Night" and just being wracked with sobbing out of intense joy and happiness. I used to cry out of joy and gratitude often when I practiced SY, and I can't remember the last time that happened. I miss that more than I can say, because it seems to me to be one of the most beautiful things I have attained in this life.

Not that SY "owns" this. Just that I experienced it reliably as a result of my practice and now must find it again, elsewhere. Somehow.

*** ***

K answers:

One of the things I find most poignant about having "loved and lost" SY is the fact that until I met MUK and GM, I was completely unable to understand the meaning of Christ's life or teachings, completely unable to appreciate the experience most Christians had with their devotions, completely unable to relate at the spiritual level with the Jews in my life (I see many similarities between the root teachings of KS and the root teachings in the early part of the Torah).

Practicing SY opened all these doors and more to me, the doors to the perception that God is real, can be felt and known, and can be seen at work in the world in a manner completely independent of any and all religious dogma.

Once I believed I understood the magic in SY's account of shaktipat and the appearance of a Being who can liberate blinded people from the illusions of body and ego consciousness, everything in my world became illumined with metaphysical magic.

To suffer doubt and disappointment has partially closed those doors for me, though I keep hoping that God isn't so limited that It can only reach me through the damaged medium of SY and the compromised vehicles of Muktananda and his successor.

It would be a real shame if God turned out to be that small, eh?

Well, happy Solstice Season to you anyway (given that the Winter Solstice is the birthday of no God but the God of the returning Sun).

K.

3rdeyeopen said...

Hi SeekHer,

You run a class act.

Notice I no longer concentrated on politics after you requested it the first time. I "got it". And respect the blog owner's request. I added links to go and read for yourselves. Apparently some have selective reading skills. It was rude to post the long article, my apologies only for opening up the door to this. The rest is not my fault if there is constant harping and distracting off the original topic. I think what I send must've hit a nerve, that means there is something to what I said even if it was a just a spark of a new idea in my mind.

My analogies were SY to the collective environment we all share on earth together as a connective tissue. GM told us not to put or heads in the sand at a satsang I attended at SMA right after 911. I wish to stay in the NOW of life and know what is going on and who is honestly my friend and who are truly foes in friend clothing.
This part of my life feels important enough for me to even blog, which I do not do on any political blogs, I read (not Drudge) alot to be informed of world news. 13 months is way too long to pretend it's ALL GOOD, like a good little chump. That message means shut up and go away. It's the way a cult leader speaks and how the cult follows.

I repsect the teaching to not put my head in the sand. Cult starts in the mind. We can get out of cult mentality, and we are helping each other to do that.

A gratitude thread sounds refreshing.

SeekHer said...

"A gratitude thread sounds refreshing."

Let's have it! I'll promise to put up a new post on that topic this weekend. Let's all join K in remembering what we loved and miss SY and Gurumayi.

Joshua said...

SeekHer,

I loved what K. wrote about all the things he/she misses about SY. What a beautiful, beautiful description of those wonderful and heady times at the ashram. I kept thinking, yes, yes, yes. I miss that too. Thank you, K.

As SeekHer said in one of your previous blog entries, I miss the certainty. The knowledge that I had finally found the "one true path." I'm sad that those days are gone.

One caveat that Stuart and others have brought up on Marta's site, is that a lot of those experiences were designed and manufactured to produce those feelings in us. They were beautiful, yes, and they were set up purposely to make us cry with gratitude, feel intense emotion, and pledge our undying love and money to the guru and SYDA. Speakers and teachers and singers were carefully coached to take us on a rollercoaster of feelings - it was done on purpose.

I remember one Christmas Eve where Eugene Callender gave a talk about the song "Joy to the World." He talked about how when a great being is born, "heaven and nature sing." We all sang it then, and there was not a dry eye in the house. We sobbed with gratitude for being able to sit in the presence of a "great being." Basically, he was telling us she was Jesus and how we should rejoice. At that moment, I would have taken a bullet for Gurumayi, and done it gladly.

So it's a mixed bag for me. Those were cool times, and I experienced the most intense happiness and joy of my life. And now I also realize I was manipulated into much of that.

It was a high, and I, like many of us, kept looking for ways to get another fix. It just felt so good! So I'd plunk down another $500 for another intensive, or another course, or another retreat. Or I'd buy all the chanting tapes and videos to help bring back the experience. Or more pictures to remind me of my swooning love for Gurumayi. I spent thousands and thousands of dollars trying to get that "fix."

So I have mixed emotions about a gratitude thread,or a list of all I "recieved" in SY. I did get so much from my time in SY. I really don't regret my experiences there. But it came at a price.

And I'm still figuring out the spiritual and emotional "cost" of those experiences.

SeekHer, thank you for this blog. These conversations are truly life changing.

Blessings,

Joshua

Anonymous said...

Re: "So I have mixed emotions about a gratitude thread,or a list of all I "recieved" in SY. I did get so much from my time in SY. I really don't regret my experiences there. But it came at a price.

And I'm still figuring out the spiritual and emotional "cost" of those experiences.

SeekHer, thank you for this blog. These conversations are truly life changing."

Blessings,

Joshua

December 7, 2007 2:41 PM

Joshua,

Thank you for this comment. This is where my head is exactly. My fear was it turning into a SY infomercial. It is takes a tone like Fellini or Bergman that keeps intact the shadows it might yeild some integrative benefit. Are asking opposites to stand together? How do we convey the chiaro scuro that was the practices, that convey the light and dark. Artists always trying stuff like this and it could bring on lots of creativity.

Joshua you also bring up another aspect. Are we looking to relive that heighened state or to understand it? The words, No pathos, came to mind. Wasn't sure exactly the meaning of the words that leap to my tongue, but it's wiki information might help us as we embark on sharing the good things:

File this under: "No Pathos"

Pathos (Greek: πάθος) is one of the three modes of persuasion in rhetoric (along with ethos and logos). Pathos appeals to the audience's emotions. It is a part of Aristotle's philosophies in rhetoric.

Emotional appeal can be accomplished in a multitude of ways:

by metaphor or story telling, common as a hook,
by a general passion in the delivery and an overall amount of emotional items in the text of the speech, or in writing.
In rhetoric, pathos is the use of emotional appeals to alter the audience's judgment. A common use of pathos in argument is creating a sense of rejection if the audience doesn't agree. Creating a fear of rejection is in essence, creating a pathos argument.

Many refer to Pathos as the "band-wagon" appeal, or trying to convince the audience to join in on the speaker's belief. By making the statement in a way that cannot be argued, the audience feels driven to believe the speaker's opinion as a fact, thus joining the speaker in belief as it being a commonly accepted idea. This is a major theme used in any form of propaganda.

Over-emotionalism can be the result of an excess of pathos.


Pathos is also the name of the ancient Phoenecian God of Desire. He was the brother of Eros as referenced by the Farrars in their book "The Witches God".

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathos"

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Joshua said:

So I have mixed emotions about a gratitude thread,or a list of all I "received" in SY. I did get so much from my time in SY. I really don't regret my experiences there. But it came at a price.

And I'm still figuring out the spiritual and emotional "cost" of those experiences.

K responds:

First up, I'm a woman tho sometimes I write like a man. Byproduct of having a chart with a strong Mars placement, afflicted nonetheless. :)

Second, I share some of your reserve about a "gratitude" thread in the sense that when I posted my message about the things I missed in SY I was talking about something I lost. I was grieving, not speaking my gratitudes.

And third, I have felt vexed all day since 3rdEye built on my post asking that we post a thread on the "positive" things (ie like me?) and talk less about the "negative" things (do I understand him/her correctly?)

Beyond the often heard SY request that we refrain from discussing anything UNCOMFORTABLE because DISCOMFORT is "NEGATIVE", 3rdEye's statement conveys a misunderstanding of why I posted a list of things I miss about SY in the first place.

I miss the list of "good things" in my history with SY because I believed when I embraced them that they were built on solid truth. In fact they were built on deliberately constructed illusions.

Having lost my innocence about the illusions of SY, I have no choice but to move forward with the truth... not wallow in gratitude for all the good stuff I got at the expense of the truth. Sometimes I do this moving forward with equanimity, clarity and resolve, sometimes with nostalgic sorrow.

But at no time can I afford to "focus on the positive" at the expense of the factual.

This collective grief about SY comes at end of a 13 year lesson while Pluto traveled in Sagittarius. I expected to see issues of communication and belief face a strenuous test during this time, both in my life and in the world around me. Pluto brings the death of things that the body, mind and heart no longer need so that the soul can grow.

I think I am personally feeling the loss of the dream of SY more acutely this year's end because some other personal losses weigh heavily on my heart.

In any case, yes I am glad for everything I got from my experience with SY, but I am also sorry for the things I lost and the things I put up with to get the things I miss.

I have some writing on this that I may post at another time in another medium. Your last post convinced me that the blog about SY and addiction psychology might be a fruitful one for me to pursue.

During my constitutional walk today I came up with a name for the blog that I like. I have some written material I can use to get it started and I can do my best to work the blogger software so as to welcome comments but monitor them for flaming and other online nuisances.

I'm going to think about this over the weekend, talk to my sponsor about the pros and cons of taking it on, and get back to Christopher's community about my decision by Monday AM.

Thanks for reading and thanks again for your comments about the Sweet Surprise. I've enjoyed our exchanges today, Joshua.

K

sickofreadingnegativestuff said...

You only make yourself sick if you fill your mind with negative stuff.

SeekHer said...

"sickofreadingnegativestuff said...
You only make yourself sick if you fill your mind with negative stuff."

I actually agree. What I feel has been going on here is not naked negativity but the messy attempt to get clear about a path that had both positive and negative aspects for most adherents.

What is/was your experience? You're welcome to share it here.

Anonymous said...

"You only make yourself sick if you fill your mind with negative stuff."

Each person, individually is the best judge of what makes him or her sick and what makes him or her healthy.

It isnt negativity when a dentist takes an X ray and reports that you have a spot of dental decay that needs repair.

Negativity would be if that dentist were not to take the x rays, and you'd end up needing a root canal.

Anonymous said...

"In rhetoric, pathos is the use of emotional appeals to alter the audience's judgment.

"A common use of pathos in argument is creating a sense of rejection if the audience doesn't agree. Creating a fear of rejection is in essence, creating a pathos argument..."

"By making the statement in a way that cannot be argued, the audience feels driven to believe the speaker's opinion as a fact, thus joining the speaker in belief as it being a commonly accepted idea. This is a major theme used in any form of propaganda."

One of the vows taken in Buddhism is to beware of darkening mind and body of self and other with intoxicants. Most of us assume this refers only to chemical intoxicants.

But..pathos could be considered an intoxicant, given that by the description above, it compromises our ability to use our faculties to full capacity.

Pendragon some time back referred to shakti as resembling an addictive drug. That too could be considered an intoxicant, as can charisma...and the ability to terrorize with fear of rejection, fear of losing family and friends, or the threat of life being bleak and meaningless if one questions the leader or the group's worldview.

Anonymous said...

K, I would welcome a blog by you and definitely would read it.

Enjoying memory lane here about the SY experiences...

But I have this to say, do not feel that you have to give up devotion forever. Seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened to you...

One of the things to remember is that we all received a big boost of spiritual energy which enabled us to experience things which had been previously been dead to us. We have those who were exploited by SM to thank because ultimately they were the source of the tremendous energy that was released.

Peace and Love

Episcopalian

Anonymous said...

"and the ability to terrorize with fear of rejection, fear of losing family and friends, or the threat of life being bleak and meaningless if one questions the leader or the group's worldview."

December 7, 2007 8:26 PM

These are actually deep primal fears, residiual from our homonid ancestors, the primates.

The ability to question is what makes us Homo Sapiens, 'knowing humans'. SY taps on our deeper needs and exploits them, does not want the homo sapien part of us, just the ape part. Put the money in the cup monkey. The official response to Marta Szabo's pathmark website 'The Guru Looked Good', is complete evidence that SY practices the above coercive tactics. The fake mirror site, "The Guru Looks Good' would have been taken down a long time ago if there was any reality to the claims SYDA makes for itself. The site came strait from the coffers of SY public relations tactics. It should be a terrible embarrassment to GM. It is standing and ongoing proof of the charges against her.

Anonymous said...

"sickofreadingnegativestuff said...
You only make yourself sick if you fill your mind with negative stuff."

December 7, 2007 6:55 PM

You are what the doctor ordered.

3rdeyeopen said...

Hi K,
My apologies if I offended you, was not intended.
My last sentence came from feeling frustrated ducking the mud. Kinda like, let's move on. I vaguely remember you said something similar but mostly I was thinking of how to write my last post. In fact, after I posted I thought do I really want to go back into the ALL good and not face authentic emotions? Since this is not my blog and SeekHer jumped on that last sentence I thought I"d blog if the topic and posts did not get too syrupy. Did not mean to jump on your thoughts and hijack.

Epi, your perception about the SM girls really expanded my awareness of the situation. Thanks.

sickofreadingnegativestuff said...

SeekHer said...

" "sickofreadingnegativestuff said...
You only make yourself sick if you fill your mind with negative stuff."

I actually agree. What I feel has been going on here is not naked negativity but the messy attempt to get clear about a path that had both positive and negative aspects for most adherents.

What is/was your experience? You're welcome to share it here."

OK, I've posted a couple of times before as one of the "anonymous" people.

I've been a SY person since the mid 80s. I still practice SY as I get a lot of benefit from it. I have spent a lot of time with Gurumayi in the past and she has given me the most incredible love and helped me to become a stronger person. Although I still love Gurumayi because she has helped me so much, I am no longer that interested in the "cult" of the Guru, which is just as well, seeing she's not available anyway. It would be nice to see her, but either way, doesn't really matter to me at the moment. Yes, I've been disturbed for years by the negative stuff one sees in SY, but I also can't deny the love. I still attend a Center to do seva, attend the GG or just chat to friends over a chai, because I can't deny that doing so lifts any depression I feel, and makes the problems in life a little bit easier to deal with. I go away feeling clearer-minded.

I could say some negative things about stuff in SY, as there is always a flip side to every coin. However, I think it is better to focus on the positive and to remember the good things, even if you've left SY. Dwelling on the negative does make one sick. I know from experience -- I posted earlier that "some of us are mad at Nityananda". Well, I was referring to myself. I had his darshan this year and it upset me a lot. He used to be my guru years ago, and seeing him again just brought up some awful stuff, and I wish I hadn't gone to see him now. I feel dreadful! Now this is something I really need to let go of!

So that is why I feel it is important (when you are ready) to forget the negative and move on. Or if the negative is much smaller than the positive experience of SY, there is no point in moving on -- Just enjoy the positive side. This is not to deny that the negative ever existed, but to find the right balance for yourself -- for your own sanity.

Anonymous said...

Greetins my adopted people,

Re: "Do you mean "young Nit" as opposed to Bade Baba? Actually there is one on a website belonging to Gurumayi's brother."

See this link, bottom of page:
http://www.babasfootsteps.com/meetbaba.htm

Thank you for posting this trip down memory lane. I can't visit all the related SY sites so appreciate crumbs that link. What struck the high note on a visit to the Baba's Footsteps website was this:

I detested that freaking couch thing in the GSP ashram. It was so groos to me. It screamed abusive, disgusting, ugly sex bed set right out in the freaking courtyard for all the world to see, but I was blind then and hooked on the vibe, so did not admit this vision of the truth to myself.

In one of the wonderful resources linked by the commentors here I read that a sage/teacher told his students, "no one can lie to you". I think that is true now, which makes what went down in SY for me even more egregious. What were they dishing that made me ignorant of what I really knew? I had been disarmed. My normal functioning was not completely intact. I was in love.

Often now post SY, with the funny glasses off, I can see a situation in a different way. Like everything, the weather, the clothes, the cars, the music, the tone of voice, the time of day and the location, concurrent events and objects can all be read to tell the truth about something I am contemplating. It shocks me to be able to see things like this with confusion gone. It is new to me.

I learned these skills through books, teachers and experience. I didn't have these skills when I came to SY. With all these skills and information in place, SY just doesn't pass the test anymore. It's is embarrassing and almost frightening to think that all this so then, but I couldn't see it.

The ability to occlude reality that SY possessed and is still trying lamely to continue, is something worth exploring. I am really grateful for the comments that shed light on all these things with respect for what was happening to hearts.

Thank you for being a presence here. You make it safe for a lot of suffering hearts. I know there are many benefitting from your compassion.

Re: "Might if a add an offshoot to one of the points made? Childish verses childlike? I WAS one of the people who would purposely walk through the main building on seva breaks to hope to see Gurumayi. And I would follow her around if she was out. I have heard people here and on other sites saying people like that are pathetic, hehe. But it was not like that to me. It was the symbol of the Guru nearby which allowed me to feel some reverence for higher consciousness, which I built upon for my time at home the rest of the year. Many people do the same with Nityananda's statue. I admit it was highly manufactured state, but over time it moved my normal state a little higher. Did she have anything to do with it? I am not sure and it does not matter, but I think it is much healthier to say, No she did not. She is the representation of a higher ideal, if in fact the Holy Spirit of God was coming through her and affecting me that would just be a bonus, the real power is within. Wanted to explain that for myself.

Anon w/e

December 6, 2007 1:23 AM




To Anon w/e

I think we are spirtitual twins. You describe my spirituality quite well. Your quote above is one reason all this is so painful. To see that she is really on the path with us, not above us, is a weaning process for those of us in love with Guru Mother. Is there such a thing as Guru Sister?

Anonymous said...

Some early morning advice for
those of us who have read, want to read, or are reading 'Ka' by Roberto Calasso:

The stories of India are so vast that no one person, however gifted, can ever establish hegemony as a commentator.

Enjoy 'Ka', notice where it flashes your own life right back into your face.

At the same time, do not allow Calasso, or anyone, to colonize your mind without your knowing this is happening.

It is a wise idea, especially for those of us recovering from life in authoritarian relationships which colonized our inner lives--as we conduct rituals of disenchantment, to be careful to look at each bit of wood we lay upon the ritual fire, lest unknowingly, that item leads us into a new, more cleverly concealed ritual that binds us into some new enchantment.

Roberto Calasso started with a Western education. In reading Seek Her's wonderful essays on Krishna and the Gopis, based on Calasso, and the theological debate (six months long) on whether Krishna's love was legitimate or illegitimate---

I could not help but be reminded of a part of the deep structure of the Western mind/emotions--Courtly Love. That unrequited unfulfilled love, is somehow nobler, better than the boring, ordinary love between lawfully safetly married people.

Courtly Love entered the Western psyche starting in the 11th century and permeated the forms of life until well into the 18th Century.

Elizabeth I Tudor, preserved her ability to remain unmarried by exploiting courtly love to remain the unattainable focus of desire, the Supreme Lady for all males at her court. This brilliant woman was under pressure to marry, yet was able to stay free by inserting herself into just the right places within the structure of courtly love. She kept courtships with foreign princes spinning in orbit for years, buying time for her country, precisely because courtly love required the male suitor to prove his worth by suffering, waiting, and the longer he courted his lady, the better a man he proved himself to be. It was the opposite of the modern, 'I want you now.' In courtly love, that was the mind of a beast.

Well, according to Ka, if Calasso is currect in his chronology, the
six month long theological debate as to the supremacy of legitimate/illegitamite love took place at a rajah's court in--the early 1700s!

By contrast, Courts of Love, where matters of interpersonal desire were discussed, analyzed and debated, took place at the court of Count of Aquitaine in the 1100s--ladies debated whether it was even possible for true love to exist in marriage, because in those days, marriages were contracts between families and the young people were not allowed to choose for themselves.

So we cant rule out that Calasso could without telling us, have filtered his intepretation of Krishna and the Gopis through his own Western perspective, a perpective influenced by something alien to India--courtly love.

Arthur Koestler, travelling in India in the 1950s, in his book, The Lotus and the Robot, wrote of the new, indepedent India and its attempts to train its people to see themselves as having choice and agency:

'How could a citizen be expected to elect a government when he was not allowed to elect his own bride?' (From the chapter, 'At the Crossroads' in the subsection 'Nipped in the Bud' from The Robot and the Lotus' by Arthur Koestler.)

Calasso was formed by a culture where he was free to identify his own intersts, choose his own career--and his intimate partners.
So, lets us delight in his books, but remember he is in 'Ka' trying to describe and evoke stories from a culture where persons were not free to choose with whom they would fall in love.

So make certain that no one person ever monopolizes our take on an important subject, especially anyone whose works enchant us.

Enjoy enchantment but question enchantment, too. The ability to enjoy bliss and retain discernment may possibly be tantra, even when done, fully clothed, while reading and being read by a marvellous book.

For persepective, read various reviews on Amazon.com The presence of alternative, sometimes dissenting voices preserves us from falling into another round of enchantment, right when we are trying to free ourselves

Librarian/Zennie

SeekHer said...

"anonymous said...
Some early morning advice for
those of us who have read, want to read, or are reading 'Ka' by Roberto Calasso:

The stories of India are so vast that no one person, however gifted, can ever establish hegemony as a commentator."

It should be noted that no one has suggested that Calasso has a hegemony on Indian mythology, or that his is anything other than a cross-cultural perspective. Calasso's earlier work on Greek mythology "The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony" and "Ka" have been critically celebrated precisely because he imbibed these mythologies so completely that he was able to inhabit the myths and retell them in a way that makes them real for Westerners who are far removed from the cultures in which these myths sprang up.

Anonymous said...

Re: On Love in the Western World: "to remain the unattainable focus of desire, the Supreme Lady for all at her court... required the suitor to prove his worth by suffering, waiting, and the longer he courted the better he proved himself to be."

And so it went for me and My Very Fair Lady. Swami Chidvilasananda, a beautiful young Indian woman who suffered the philosophy and culture of Swami Muktananda. There are times my heart aches for My Lady.

Courtly love is our lineage in the Western world. Rather than seeking clues in the religions of the Occident, we in the west would do well to search these prior archtypes.

A few winters ago I found so many sources on how early Christian practice was quite tantric in symbols and practice. I will haul out what I found for another thread.

Thanks to Anonymous for commenting on this rich topic of Courtly Love. SC was quite La Reine. Non?

Excuse the French.

Anonymous said...

"Calasso's earlier work on Greek mythology "The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony" and "Ka" have been critically celebrated precisely because he imbibed these mythologies so completely that he was able to inhabit the myths and retell them in a way that makes them real for Westerners who are far removed from the cultures in which these myths sprang up."

By all means, let us enjoy and appreciate Calasso's books.

But let us remain aware that without our own alertness, it can be easy for even a wonderful author, a celebrated author's viewpoint to subtly colonize our own perceptions, rather than becoming a starting point and one resource among many, for a process of lifetime learning.

Those of us who have served time in authoritarian relationships where others have defined reality for us, may without conscious awareness of it, allow the views of a wonderful author to usurp our own process. Others who have not been in authoritarian relationships may read and enjoy this same author and not fall into this pitfall.

I offer this only because Ive stumbled into this many, many times and still have to remind myself to remain alert.

Retain discernment even in the midst of pleasure and appreciation.

Which isnt going to keep me from reading onwards in 'Ka'-- it has to be returned to the library in 2 weeks!

Lib/Zennie

Anonymous said...

Hi Anonymous at 7:30pm, what you said below peaked my curiosity:

"A few winters ago I found so many sources on how early Christian practice was quite tantric in symbols and practice. I will haul out what I found for another thread."

I have come to a similar conclusion based on my experiences with both SY and Christianity. So I am looking forward to seeing what you have found on this subject.

Specifically it is my belief that Jesus' Passion and sacrifice on the Cross was a tantric act, but a WHITE tantra, because He went forward into His Passion of His own volition, out of compassion for humanity. Furthermore I believe that He instituted the Eucharist via His sankalpa* ensuring those that remember Him in that manner would experience His Presence in the elements.

Thanks for bringing this subject up which as you can guess, is dear to my heart.

Peace and Love

Episcopalian

*Sankalpa =supreme intention or will

Anonymous said...

Just FYI, Marta has posted two new stories on her blog.

One continues the exploration of her time with her first yoga teacher Natvar and the other is a very insightful story by someone who loved and left SY.

Thanks to all for some very insightful reading at this site this week.

Epi, I'm taking your support into consideration. I'll continue to think about establishing my own blog about New Age spirituality and addiction recovery.

Happy Holiday Season to you and to all sincere Christians.

K.

Anonymous said...

It is very interesting to look at these two parts of the Operating System of the Western, European mind, some of which trickled into the American psyche.

In Feudal times, there was two relationships:

The relationship between lord/suzrein and vassal

The lord vassal relationships required that loyalty be reciprocated. It had to do with power, property, protection. That is--allocation of resources.

If a vassal, whether peasant, or minor noble, had pledged fealty--faith and had given taxes or military support to the lord, and the lord failed in turn to give protection and advocacy to the vassal, the lord had failed to reciprocate their loyalty and could be accused of bad lordship.

The barons of England forced King John and later Edward I to sign the Magna Charta because these kings were seen by the barons as violated the terms of their lordship

Marriage had nothing to do with love in those early days. It was arranged between families and was done to create protective alliances. That was why the ladies at the Court of Love in Acquitaine ruled that it was impossible for love to exist in marraige--for the two who married were not allowed to choose.

In the feudal context, marriage was a corporate merger.

(As late as the 19th Century in a Trollope novel, a young man tells his father he does not love the woman he is told to marry and the reply is, 'This isnt about love, this is marriage.')

But in the relationships in Courtly Love between the Lover and his Lady, unrequited love, where the two suffered, waited, tried each other's fidelity, it was considered noble to stay faithful with nothing in return.

But if you were in charge of protecting your lands from a hostile foe, you'd be a fool to stay faithful to a Lord who demonstrated an inability to reciprocate your taxes by not riding to your aid when it was your turn to summon help.

So we have inherited a strange double standard:

In spiritual matters unrequited love is noble, and proves our worth.

In the world of property, money, and the need for pensions to support our old age, unrequited loyalty means being used and abused

When we are conned into equated the ugliness and danger of unrequited loyalty with the Western ideal of unrequited, courtly love, and the (supposed?) Eastern ideal of devotion to an unknowable, Guru who is supposed to have transcended all social norms (including loyalty and need for pensions in old age)

..that is where we get in trouble.

Right now, for me, cutting the Gordian Knot has included examining unrequited loyalty.

Unlike love, in matters of loyalty, we can trace how resources are allocated over time.

Right now, especially as I am getting older, I see nothing noble in unrequited loyalty.

My mother had a life of unrequited devotion to a man who could just as well have been a guru.

She ended up unable to admit she'd ever made a mistake, turned down an admirer who seemed capable of reciprocating her love and she ended up as an alcoholic.
She kept invoking the nobility of love and sacrifice, but it didnt transform her into a nobler and better person.

Instead, the man she was involved with needed her and others to lie and cover up for him, make excuses for him, and mythologize him.

Just like a guru.

An adult lover should not need this from us-and would not want this from us, either.

Devotion and being an accomplice are two different things.

Devotion serves truthfulness.

Being an accomplish generates deceit.

Stuart said...

Anonymous said...
It isnt negativity when a dentist takes an X ray and reports that you have a spot of dental decay that needs repair.

Good point, thanks. When I go to the doctor, I don't want someone who exaggerates risks, who acts as if it's a calamity if my cholestoral is a little too high. On the other hand, I don't want the doctor to put a smiley face on everything, and pretend that the risks don't exist at all.

What I do want is a doctor who tells me about my health exactly as it is, without exaggerating any risks or dangers, but without ignoring or denying anything either. A doctor who's overly concerned about telling me anything "negative" is pretty damn useless.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

Anonymous said...

>>""A few winters ago I found so many sources on how early Christian practice was quite tantric in symbols and practice."<<

I would be very interested in knowing what you mean by this...which symbols and which practices? And how do you feel they relate to tantra? which forms of tantra? which specific tantric sects and practices? Which yantras, mantras, rituals, philosophies, etc?

"Specifically it is my belief that Jesus' Passion and sacrifice on the Cross was a tantric act, but a WHITE tantra, because He went forward into His Passion of His own volition, out of compassion for humanity."

Again, I wonder why you are refering to this as "tantric". What form of tantra are you using as a measure? Where, in tantric practice, do you find this form of sacrifice of the individual for the collective whole? Are you talking about the higher levels of Tibetan Buddhist Tantra? the Bodhisattva concept? or what specifically? In which texts, which practices, which pujas, etc.?
Please pardon me if my posting style seems overly direct. I don't mean to be too adamant. But I am wondering why there is this tendency to stir everything in the same spiritual pot. There are major differences between even esoteric Christianity and Tantra in both method and motivation.

"Furthermore I believe that He instituted the Eucharist via His sankalpa* ensuring those that remember Him in that manner would experience His Presence in the elements."

Again, I'm not sure why tagging it with a sanskrit label is necessary? The "will of 'god'" is a pretty universal spiritual concept in most traditions and Christianity, in particular, has reams of text and commentary on the Eucharist and the "will" of God...why the Eucharist was so important, what it meant, why Jesus offered bread and wine at the Last Supper, how the Eucharist is the Living God in the Present Moment, how the material elements are the vehicle for the presence of 'god'. I have heard, certainly, the Eucharist compared to the 5 forbidden substances of tantric ritual. Usually, this is meant as an insult to the Eucharist.Hard line Hindu fundamentalists sometimes use this comparison when they rail against Christian conversion in India...comparing the eating of flesh in tantric ritual to Christian communion. It seems really strange to layer Hindu concepts on top of Christian concepts..unless you are a Hindu convert trying to "understand" Christianity in your own cultural terms.
There is a tendency, where there is an interest in esoteric spirituality, to see the commonalities and it is a very interesting thing to explore...there are loads of books in New Age book stores about Jesus' "time in India" and there have been wonderful commentaries on The Gospels by Yogananda, Eknath Eswaren and others. But I think it's really important to pay careful attention to the differences as well...both cultural and practical...especially when you're talking about tantra. This was one the big "problems" in siddha yoga that I saw...the mushing together of Western and Hindu concepts, the misinterpretation of Hindu tradition, the "New Age-ification" of texts and philosophies..
Again, I hope I have not come on too strong here and I apologize if I have. I also find these ideas interesting but I have a real "thing" about accuracy.

anonymous

Anonymous said...

Hi anonymous at 12:57,

Don't worry about coming on too strong when you posit valid points. I am basically feeling my way here myself. I am using tantra here very generally (and you may well be right that it is TOO general) to mean a process where by specific acts of an adept practicioner, grace is released. I obviously (at least I hope it is obvious) do not intend to demean Jesus in the process. And it is true that I am searching for some commonality between my previous path from which I learned much, however flawed it was in its ethics, and my present path, which is Christianity. As you can surmise, I am not wedded to dogmatic assertions about Christianity. Perhaps this is where you and I depart in our outlooks somewhat. One thing I sense is that if modern or new age seekers were to have some way to understand some of the core practices in Christianity, such as Holy Communion, and having gratitude for Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross, they would experience the Grace and the Love available from Jesus Christ.

I hope this makes some sense to you.

Peace and Love

Episcopalian

PS. And I myself am still curious about what the poster that I responded to found about the relation between tantra and Christianity in his/her readings.

Anonymous said...

"comparing the eating of flesh in tantric ritual to Christian communion."

It's tantric shmantric alright. Where do you think the power comes from?

Anonymous said...

"PS. And I myself am still curious about what the poster that I responded to found about the relation between tantra and Christianity in his/her readings."

December 10, 2007 1:29 AM

Traveling, sources are at home base. The holy family, the trinity, the mass, transubstantiation, it is all in the records. The church has not really hidden these things, but had other priorities, so we don't hear. This is the power that creep hitler was after. Some of this will hold the attraction of things like the davinci code. Since I have had enough of magical thinking for a lifetime I hope our discussion doesn't veer too far into conspiracy theories. That's for my own sake, I use to be a big fan of them. Ok for hobby, but ultimately useless knowledge.

What all this is about is deeper, grounded, real and loving. The fear of it is what is dark. It is zip, a chimera. The real is good and it is not hocus pocus. But it is mystical. I have had that experience.

SY tried to claim the mystery of life, even the otherworld as their own with copyrights. I wish they would stop with yapping about such things already. Copyrights are in place even if you don't say so. SYDA is just so litigious these days and have lost all creativity.

Someday at SY needs to consume themselves some church, which means serve somebody. There's a Dylan song on it. I head SC was a fan.

Anonymous said...

>>>"I am using tantra here very generally (and you may well be right that it is TOO general) to mean a process where by specific acts of an adept practicioner, grace is released."<<<

Dear Epi,
Now I understand what you were getting at...but this is not an accurate definition of tantra...tantra is not about "releasing Grace". It's more a kind of "science" involving the use of materials, mantras, diagrams, pujas, etc. that details the knowledge of the tattvas and how to "control" them..ultimately, the result is the union of Shiva/Shakti in the Sahasrar. Anyway, this is what confused me about your post...where the "tantric" elements of Early Christianity were mentioned.


". As you can surmise, I am not wedded to dogmatic assertions about Christianity. Perhaps this is where you and I depart in our outlooks somewhat."

I am not wedded to "dogma" either especially since I am no longer a practicing Christian or tantric...although I did spend a number of years studying the connections between Christian and Eastern esoteric systems. What concerns me is not dogma but accuracy in terminology. This may seem "picky" but, in reality, it's quite important partly because tantra is a very difficult and complicated subject to use as a reference point.


"One thing I sense is that if modern or new age seekers were to have some way to understand some of the core practices in Christianity, such as Holy Communion, and having gratitude for Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross, they would experience the Grace and the Love available from Jesus Christ."

I totally agree with you here in terms of ways of understanding Christian "core practices" or "dogmas". For instance, the phrase spoken by Jesus and so frequently misappropriated by Fundamentalists, "I Am the Light of the World"...if seen in relation to Advaita Vedanta, can be a real revelation... The "I AM" (that which we all experience when we look deeply into the core of "ourselves") is the LIGHT of the WORLD! Or..."I AM the light of the world and none can come to The Father except through ME!" (a phrase frequently used to damn "heathens" or "unsaved" folks to eternal torment) could be, more accurately, read as..."The I AM is the ONLY way to Liberation"..in other words, only through the discovery of the inner "I AM" (spoken of so beautifully by Ramana Maharshi) can an individual come to "The Father"...meaning "God", meaning...that Pure Awake State that is the foundation of all creation.
There are many, many books that discuss these connections...among them, "Christ the Yogi".
To me, personally, it's important that one can understand Jesus the Christ as a gate, as one beautiful avenue of Grace for those who are drawn to him. And, even more important (again, to me or imo)is the understanding that any figure: Buddha, Jesus, Shiva, Shakti is just that...a "gateway" or a "pointer" to connection with what is always there, always available, non-denominational, acultural, the LOVE or Presence that is Ground of Being within each one of us...what we call "The Self" or (if Buddhist)Pure Awakeness or The Truth. It's always there....all the time...it can't be otherwise and it is everything. We don't have to do pujas or rituals to experience it...just sit and be silent. However, having the experiential understanding that THIS is the ground of being-ness for each one of us AND everyone and everything else that exists can infuse a ritual, whether Holy Communion or "darshan" (of a tree, a bird, a rock or a person) with intense sweetness. What I have an objection to is smoothing off the rough edges of traditions so that they become "acceptable" and kind of mooshing everything together. It's wonderful to see Holy Communion as a "direct transmission" of Grace...(and again, there have been many many books written by theologians..such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer about the way The Eucharist dissolves time, creating a timeless or vertical time where one can be "in the Presence" of the historical Jesus...for instance) but it isn't really necessary to go into another tradition in order to make Christianity "palatable" and, again, it's a disservice not to mention that one of the tenants of Christianity (even the Episcopal branch of the Church..and I speak from experience here)is that it is necessary to be baptized in order to experience Jesus' ultimate Grace. Christianity is a religion of conversion, well-bred or not. And that's fine...but it's good to have it out on the table when discussing "gratitude for the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross". Some religions require conversion, others don't...some aren't even "religions"...it's good to be clear about the distinctions when comparing them.

best,
anonymous

Anonymous said...

Thanks anonymous, 10:21 for your beautiful post. Your point about my use of the term "tantra" is well taken. Perhaps it is better to avoid it in the context of Grace bestowal as I experience it through Jesus.

You may or may not have read some of my earlier posts in other threads of this blog. I came back (yes, I was baptized as a child of ten) to Christianity three years ago, after being in SY for some 30 years, when Jesus Christ suddenly entered my life and consciousness. Suffice it to say that, though previously Baba and then GM had been my istadevas (or chosen foci of worship) prior to that point, I found myself totally focused and drawn to Jesus. The transformation was almost seamless, as grace poured into my life and heart through Jesus and I found Him guiding me from within.

Secondly I want to acknowledge again the beauty of what you have to say here about the I AM and I agree completely about how fundamentalists misuse the teachings of Christianity. I hope you continue to dialog here as I discern you have much to share.
I am curious as to what path you find yourself on currently, if you choose to discuss it.

Peace and Love

Episcopalian

Anonymous said...

Would like to say to Seekher and the Commentors. I feel that I am continuing the education the stopped when I had to find my way in the world, to make a living. I was liberal arts all thw way until survival reared it's head.

There is a real sense of coming home to something here for me. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

>>>"I am curious as to what path you find yourself on currently, if you choose to discuss it"<<

Dear Epi,
I'm on the "Pathless Path"...no joke ...paths seem to have dropped off for me (after many many years of traveling)...I try to listen carefully and follow the thread of inner "awakeness" in the moment as much as I am capable ...I still sit meditation when it arises to do so...and I imagine I will take Holy Communion on Christmas Eve as an act of gratitude for Jesus' beautiful example of the Light of Consciousness fully awakening in human form ( my baptism is still valid, I guess..lol).
best to you and thanks for the sweetness of your replies to my prodding.

anonymous

Anonymous said...

Blessings to you anonymous 3:35 pm, and see you over at the Gratitude thread where I saw that you have already posted. I am still mulling over my reply there, because there is a lot to say!

And we are told that Baptism is "indelible"; that's why someone who comes to our church who was baptized at some time in their past is not baptized again. So welcome to the Table on Christmas Eve!

Peace and Love

Episcopalian

Anonymous said...

Blogmaster: you're really sad and pathetic. Why don't you just let it go and move on? Or do you enjoy being bitter? What a wonderful spiritual stance.

SeekHer said...

"Epi said:
Don't worry about coming on too strong when you posit valid points. I am basically feeling my way here myself. I am using tantra here very generally (and you may well be right that it is TOO general) to mean a process where by specific acts of an adept practicioner, grace is released. I obviously (at least I hope it is obvious) do not intend to demean Jesus in the process. And it is true that I am searching for some commonality between my previous path from which I learned much, however flawed it was in its ethics, and my present path, which is Christianity"

Check this out, from the wonderful website "Kali's Child"

http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~kalischi/secret.html

"The great Catholic theologian Hans Küng once wrote that “No one could fail to see that all the Tantric systems, and the Shaktist practices especially, are extraordinarily alien to Christians, more alien than anything we have met thus far in Buddhism or Hinduism” (Kung 1986). Küng then goes on to affirm the religious integrity and importance of these religious systems, particularly in their affirmation of the female principle, their sacralization of sexuality, and their theoretical sophistication. His opening confession, however, remains no less true: for anyone writing from the Christian West, Sakta Tantra is about as foreboding and strange (and so somehow mysteriously attractive) as it gets."

Anonymous said...

"Blogmaster: you're really sad and pathetic. Why don't you just let it go and move on? Or do you enjoy being bitter? What a wonderful spiritual stance."

December 10, 2007 9:09 PM

Hello Anonymous,

Welcome. Take a deep breath, relax. No on is bitter here.

P e a c e

P e a c e

P e a c e

Anonymous said...

SeekHer,

Thanks for the link. That was very helpful. I had heard "Kali's Child" discussed online, as a criticism of Ramakrishna. As, "see, even with Ramakrishna there are questions..."
Clearly there is more to the story than just dismissing him.

And I can definitely relate to Jeffrey Kripal's exploration of erotic mysticism, a very powerful way of approaching the Divine within us all and ultimately experiencing Union, as I was attracted thusly even before encountering SY, and this approach carried over to Christianity. And it is not necessary to act it out on the physical plane!

I enjoyed this wrap up story Kripal related (handed down by his mentor):
"A Rabbi from Cracow once dreamt that he should go to Prague to find a hidden treasure buried under a bridge there. In Prague, far away from home, he found the bridge guarded by a Christian, who laughed at him for believing in dreams; he, after all, had had a similar dream, which told him to go to Cracow, where he would find a treasure buried behind the stove of a Rabbi named Isaac son of Jekel. The Rabbi said nothing but hurried home, for he was Isaac son of Jekel, and the treasure he had sought in a distant land was in fact buried in his very own home. But—and this is the key to the story—such a treasure could only be discovered and fully appreciated by a trip to a distant land and its foreign (in this case, Christian) culture." YES!

Peace and Love

Episcopalian

SeekHer said...

Confidential to the person who commented here on comments I left on another blog. I don't cross-post between blogs, waaaay too confusing, and so have not published your comment. I do want you to know that I took what you said to heart. Reading again, I see that I missed that one, small crucial detail that put that entire scene in perspective. I don't know how.

We don't share the same viewpoint. But in this instance, you are right as rain.

Peace.

(if you want to dialogue offline, send me contact info in a comment. I won't post it and will reply with my own)

Anonymous said...

You think that Gurumayi had sevites help with her talk because she couldn't write it herself? Boy, that's rich... And South Fallsburg watching your blog? You seem to have delusions of grandeur. And no, I'm not part of South Fallsburg. Don't flatter yourself.

Anonymous said...

"You think that Gurumayi had sevites help with her talk because she couldn't write it herself? Boy, that's rich... And South Fallsburg watching your blog? You seem to have delusions of grandeur. And no, I'm not part of South Fallsburg. Don't flatter yourself".

December 13, 2007 1:14 PM

Dear Anonymous,

You bring up a good point. This is a point I find interesting. Why is there so much concern about Gurumayi using speech writers? It is so common. Why is it a point of discussion whether she did or didn't?

On the point of whether So. Fallsburg is watching the blog or not. If they aren't, and are completely ignoring it, then all competency as an organization has ended.

In any case, if you aren't 'part of So. Fallsburg' how would you know either way? The process of disenchantment with SY is not easy. When you get over, as Seekher says, that yes, there has been a fire, you may find the company here helps.

Anonymous said...

"Why is there so much concern about Gurumayi using speech writers? It is so common. Why is it a point of discussion whether she did or didn't?"

Well, actually it was well-known that she had speech-writers. I myself preferred it when she used to speak without a prepared speech e.g. after the Guru Gita. Her real personality came out then.

Anonymous said...

">>>Why is there so much concern about Gurumayi using speech writers? It is so common. Why is it a point of discussion whether she did or didn't?"<<



Think about it. Why would a "realized being" need speech-writers? That was what she was presented to us as: a Siddha Guru, a Realized Being..."every word that came from her mouth was a mantra"...If the words weren't really hers and we were believing the rap, that these same words were "mantras", then that means that we were, in reality, being spiritually directed by speechwriters! mulling over their words, meditating on their words... interesting way of doing sadhana. The point of the concept of "words as mantras" or mantras in general is that you follow the mantric vibration back to its source and, eventually, merge with that source. Frankly, if I'd known that I was "merging" with Sally Kempton, I'd have probably had a different take on things.
s.
>

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

"Think about it. Why would a 'realized being' need speech-writers?"

The real question is, "why not?" :)

Anonymous said...

"Anonymous said...

"Think about it. Why would a 'realized being' need speech-writers?"

The real question is, "why not?" :)"

Why not? I see this as a blinding glimpse of the obvious: Only a person living in a state of permanent full enlightenment would be able to clearly and comprehensively describe what that state is like and how it's different from "ordinary awareness", how s/he achieved that state, and what "those who want to follow" should do in order to get there, too. Plus a description of "how do you know when you've gotten there".

Using professional speechwriters to polish the original "enlightened writer's" language to make it more understandable for "the masses", well yes, this I can absolutely see happening. But, this is the "enlightened master's" use of a toolkit to prepare a more polished speech.

The process I've heard about from others directly who were involved with GM's speechwriting process, and also read about on Marta's site and other's internet posts, suggests STRONGLY to me that others did much of the speechwriting FOR HER. The process didn't start with GM writing her own drafts first and letting "Sydney" and her crew of sevite speechwriters polish it. Sydney and her crew of speechwriters wrote the speech and GM approved it and/or suggested changes and edits.

These two processes are very different concepts.

In the first case, one supposedly writes the words from an internal point of origin that is fully enlightened, from which that person's enlightened stream of thoughts arise.

In the second case, people who are chasing after supposed enlightenment (and are thus supposedly NOT enlightened), who have placed themselves at the beck and call, the "whim" if you will, of a supposedly enlightened master, write the words from THEIR consciousness as a point of origin.

In other words:

Enlightened consciousness >> Speech from Enlightened perspective

vs.

Unenlightened consciousness >> Speech from an Unenlightened perspective

To me, this was a blinding glimpse of the obvious but I'm willing to allow that it might not be for others. Not intentionally trying to be arrogant here, just amazed that the original question of "why not" even came up. If someone is "selling enlightenment services" then the product or service better come from an authoritative source. Otherwise, astute buyers can...sooner, or later, as in the case of many of us (which leads me to question how astute I really, really was!) eventually do see through the ruse. And then it turns into snake oil, not the lotion of enlightenment.

Anonymous said...

>>""Think about it. Why would a 'realized being' need speech-writers?"

The real question is, "why not?" :)"

:) :) Um....:) ...well, I guess...I mean, "it's all one" :), you know...why not see that the words of joe schmoe are the same as those of a siddha guru?? why not take them as "the truth". I mean...well, it's all the same, isn't it? truth? lies? fabrications? all part of Reality? siddha guru, swami, speechwriter, what's the diff? Sure, I can see it...paying $500 to listen to a speech written by an unbaked lackey, then "contemplating" the words of a clueless person just like myself...well, hey, it's kind of like politics, isn't it? :) :)

Anonymous said...

"why not see that the words of joe schmoe are the same as those of a siddha guru?? why not take them as "the truth". I mean...well, it's all the same, isn't it?"

No, no, and again, I must VOCIFEROUSLY argue, NO!!! They are NOT the same.

The difference?

Joe Schmoe knows everybody else knows that he's just Joe Schmoe. It's just Joe's perspective, Joe's opinion. Everybody's got one. And Joe Schmoe's opinion really IS the same thing as Jim Schmoe's and Jane Schmoe's and Sally Schmoe's.

A "Siddha Guru"? Well...it depends on whether that "Siddha Guru" really is a perfected, enlightened being in full truth, or instead one who PURPORTS to be one, and has enough of a set of tantric and/or energetic tools to very effectively pull the wool over the willing sheep's eyes into THINKING, BELIEVING, and ASSUMING that every single solitary damned thing that "Siddha Guru" says is MANTRA, holy words, words that contain an energetic push toward the follower's enlightenment, words that maybe sound very simple but actually are interpreted as carrying some intense, deep, mysterious inner treasure of meaning for that follower's sadhana path toward desired enlightenment.

If said Siddha Guru really is perfected, then all that jabberwocky may be true. But if it's not, and said Siddha Guru really is just Jane Schmoe with a bag of tricks up her tantric sleeve....very deep lies and deception are present here.

And THAT is the difference.

We were told in SY that the guru's words were mantra. Including the speeches and New Year's messages that other people apparently wrote for her. Were THOSE mantra??? Were THEY from an enlightened source???

If they were, this movement we all know wouldn't be falling apart. And nearly NONE of us would be on this blog to begin with. In fact, it wouldn't even BE here.

Anonymous said...

>>""why not see that the words of joe schmoe are the same as those of a siddha guru?? why not take them as "the truth". I mean...well, it's all the same, isn't it?"

No, no, and again, I must VOCIFEROUSLY argue, NO!!! They are NOT the same."<<

Have you literally NO sense of humor? this was so obviously a joke, a spoof, in reply to the outrageousness of the comment made previously...about "why not use speechwriters"...get it???
s.

Anonymous said...

"Have you literally NO sense of humor? this was so obviously a joke, a spoof, in reply to the outrageousness of the comment made previously...about "why not use speechwriters"...get it???
s."

No. I didn't catch the joke. It wasn't apparent to me. I truly, honestly thought you were serious.

All that typing...all in response to a spoof. Sheesh.

Anonymous said...

All that typing...all in response to a spoof. Sheesh.

December 15, 2007 6:22 PM


Hi anon, whoever you are you gave me the best laugh in a long time.
love that :-)

It is hard to know when people are joking online. Thus the emoticons.

Personally I am glad the discussion went where it did, please keep on. ;-)

Anonymous said...

Dear Anon. Dec 6, 3:05 - Yes! I think you're on to something re: GM's addiction to drugs. People have been posting lately to Guruphiliac, Deconstructing SY and elsewhere, speculating that GM's total disappearance is due to addiction to heroin or another all-consuming drug. It certainly would explain a lot. Consider this though: If GM has been collecting dakshina from the faithful all this time while holed up somewhere shooting smack like a $20 ho, she's got a lot of legal 'splaining to do.

Anonymous said...

"People have been posting lately to Guruphiliac, Deconstructing SY and elsewhere, speculating that GM's total disappearance is due to addiction to heroin or another all-consuming drug".

Hello Anon December 15, 2007 11:43 PM

I have lots of shadenfreude myself regarding GM. I also I think it would be great to be able to pose the hard questions and get direcect responses. No more runaround. However, in the interest of keeping things on an even keel for all readers, this use of major slang and speculation about drug addiction is in bad form. She is a real person and deserves a more compassionate response, especially if it is so. Really this isn't us and them, good guys vs. bad guys. SY is not the enemy. It's the subject.

Peace brother

Anonymous said...

If Gurumayi/Chidvilas/Malti has an addiction to "drugs" it's more likely to pain killer pills than some kind of sordid street powder.

This is the sort of story I avoid like the plague. There is no chance at all anyone can corroborate the claims even if they are true. But I have a hunch they're not.

Where do people come up with this stuff? SY has some real controversies and real scandals in its difficult history. Nobody needs to put unprovable speculations on the internet in order to explain its strange dynamics, or its figurehead's current behavior.

Gurumayi''s probably just going through menopause and tired of the long work days.

Anonymous said...

">>No. I didn't catch the joke. It wasn't apparent to me. I truly, honestly thought you were serious.

All that typing...all in response to a spoof. Sheesh.""<<

LOL! OK! I'm going to start using those little thingys: :) :). Is this "correct"? I am not so computer literate!
does :) mean: "it's a joke?". thanks.

Anonymous said...

"">>No. I didn't catch the joke. It wasn't apparent to me. I truly, honestly thought you were serious.

All that typing...all in response to a spoof. Sheesh.""<<

LOL! OK! I'm going to start using those little thingys: :) :). Is this "correct"? I am not so computer literate!
does :) mean: "it's a joke?". thanks.

December 16, 2007 11:31 AM"

SEE???? There's actually at least TWO of us that didn't know the :) emoticon was meant to indicate a joke!!!

I'm somewhat curious if Anonymous 12/16 11:31 AM was trying to make it sound like s/he was pretending to be me? Or not?

Signed,

The first "Clueless-about-Emoticons yet vociferously argumenntative" Anonymous

SeekHer said...

"I'm somewhat curious if Anonymous 12/16 11:31 AM was trying to make it sound like s/he was pretending to be me? Or not?"

One anonymous pretending to be another anonymous. Wow, now I've heard it all!

Anonymous said...

>>"I'm somewhat curious if Anonymous 12/16 11:31 AM was trying to make it sound like s/he was pretending to be me? Or not?

Signed,

The first "Clueless-about-Emoticons yet vociferously argumenntative" Anonymous"<<

No! No! I'ts me!: S! Just me, S, pretending to be a person when I am REALLY "all of this"...lol! :) :) :)
"Smile, Smile, Smile" (ok, bad joke :) joke!)
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

Anonymous said...

"One anonymous pretending to be another anonymous. Wow, now I've heard it all!"

PRECISELY the reason I posted it!!!
Now, was somebody saying I didn't have a sense of humor????

Anonymous said...

Dear Peace Brother 7:20 - Forgive me but I must disagree with you. I don't know exactly where your head is at, but from where I sit, 1. SY most definitely IS the enemy! Isn't that what brings us all here?; 2. I feel a Malti drug addiction is very possible, given what little we do know. To me GM is just a person. She does not deserve any more "compassion" than anyone else in the public eye. In fact, you could make a case she deserves less due to the nature of her crimes (yes crimes). I'm interested in knowing the TRUTH.

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous 12/16, 11:03:
You opine that GM most likely has walked away from her function as Siddha guru and her worldwide legion of devotees due to "menopause", yet you scoff at the notion of drug addiction.
You further state that if GM did drugs it would surely be innocuous pain pills and not a "sordid street powder" like heroin. Here I feel the reverse is true. Gurumayi always like The Best in everything. Ask any junkie, in the world of drugs, heroin is Da Bomb. It has the finest effects. That's why it's expensive, that's why some people will kill for it. It's "sordid" because of the grungy things people will do to get it, not for any shortcoming in the drug itself.
We don't even know that GM is addicted to drugs. But if so, I wouldn't rule out King Heroin.

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous 12/16, 11:03:
You opine that GM most likely has walked away from her function as Siddha guru and her worldwide legion of devotees due to "menopause", yet you scoff at the notion of drug addiction.
You further state that if GM did drugs it would surely be innocuous pain pills and not a "sordid street powder" like heroin. Here I feel the reverse is true. Gurumayi always like The Best in everything. Ask any junkie, in the world of drugs, heroin is Da Bomb. It has the finest effects. That's why it's expensive, that's why some people will kill for it. It's "sordid" because of the grungy things people will do to get it, not for any shortcoming in the drug itself.
We don't even know that GM is addicted to drugs. But if so, I wouldn't rule out King Heroin.

Anonymous said...

Isn't it spelled South Fallsburg?

SeekHer said...

can't resist jumping in:

No, we are definitely not all here because we think Siddha Yoga is the enemy, at least not most of us, judging by the discourse here. There is a place for those who think so and it's called eXSY or LSY. But, if you can accept that most people here don't think of Gurumayi as an enemy, you can hang. Just don't try to lump us all together with your mindset.

Yes, we can't rule out that Gurumayi is taking heroin just like we can't rule out that she has undergone a sex-change operation. We can't rule out any outrageous speculations about her because she ain't here. That doesn't make those ideas any more likely.

menopausal maniac said...

"Gurumayi''s probably just going through menopause and tired of the long work days."

Very funny. Actually, if she's going through menopause as bad as I am, then that is a very plausible theory! :)

Anonymous said...

"This is the kind of story I avoid like the plague."

Dear Anon 12/16 11:03: Thank you for your lenghty commentary here, especially as it obviously caused you to make a major exception to your rule.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 12/8, 7:30 - Did you mean Courtney Love?

SeekHer said...

"Anonymous said...
Anonymous 12/8, 7:30 - Did you mean Courtney Love?"

let's not fall into that Hole. (Oh man, I just flashed on Gurumayi singing Doll Parts in a karaoke bar and now I can't stop smiling! thanks for that!)

Anonymous said...

To Anon Dec 15 @ 1:15 - I'm sick and tired of seeing my good name besmirched and me and my family misquoted and mischaracterized. Please cease and desist. Thank you.

Joseph Schmoe

Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Schmoe:

I read your comment and wanted to let you know that I got your message, loud and clear.

I would ask, however, that you please also make sure to direct your protest to Anonymous of December 15, 2007 10:31 AM since that was the first Anonymous poster to bring up and thus besmirch your family's good name. I willingly admit to having done so after following 12/15 10:31 AM's lead, simply as a follow on to that commenter's points. I meant no insult to you or your family, and if I unwittingly and unintentionally cast aspersions in you and family's direction, I humbly and sincerely apologize to you and yours. I plan to avoid further reference to the Schmoe family in the future. In the holiday spirit of forgiveness, I beg the same for the unintended assault on your good name, and wish you a Merry Holiday Season.

Bowing deeply with apology, regret and chagrin,

Anonymous of December 15, 2007 @1:13 PM

SeekHer said...

We're officially in the holiday sillies!

WHOOOOHOOOOOOO!

Anonymous said...

Figured you'd enjoy that, Seek.

Anonymous said...

Really take your mind off things....

http://jacksonpollock.org/

Anonymous said...

Is the the Rituals Christmas Party?

Santa's Jigsaw

http://www.jacquielawson.com/viewcard.asp?code=ER13610552

Have a great holiday :-)

Anonymous said...

I dig a pygmy
By Charles Haughtrey
And the Deaf-Aids
Phase one
In which Doris
Gets her oats.

Anonymous said...

The best way to work out what the "sweet surprise" is, is to use the modern-day Siddha Yoga technique of studying scriptural passages. i.e. we have to look up every single word in the dictionary and then put it into our own words.

So, in my own words "sweet" means light and gentle and syrupy, and "surprise" means something unanticipated.

So therefore, IMHO, it is neither the return of Gurumayi nor an all-day sucker, as these two things are too obvious. So, if you're a sugar addict, don't get your hopes up too high. If you're expecting Gurumayi to do something wonderful, then don't be disappointed on the day...

If you're listening to the satsang, just enjoy the moment, and don't have unrealistic expectations.

SeekHer said...

anon wrote:
"The best way to work out what the "sweet surprise" is, is to use the modern-day Siddha Yoga technique of studying scriptural passages. i.e. we have to look up every single word in the dictionary and then put it into our own words.

So, in my own words "sweet" means light and gentle and syrupy, and "surprise" means something unanticipated."
--------------------

Or, we could follow your "modern-day Siddha Yoga technique of studying scriptural passages" exactly and turn to the dictionary definitions of these otherwise inscrutable words:

sweet |swēt|
adjective
1 having the pleasant taste characteristic of sugar or honey; not salty, sour, or bitter : a cup of hot sweet tea

surprise |sə(r)ˈprīz|
noun
1 an unexpected or astonishing event, fact, or thing : the announcement was a complete surprise.

By this method I deduce that the New Year's Message will be a unexpected announcement that we should all make ourselves a nice, hot cup of tea with sugar, hold the lemon.

Deep.

Anonymous said...

SeekHer said:

"By this method I deduce that the New Year's Message will be a unexpected announcement that we should all make ourselves a nice, hot cup of tea with sugar, hold the lemon."

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! :) Oh, you gave me such a laugh.

(This message is posted by the 'anonymous' who brought up the idea of the 'dictionary definitions'.)

Anonymous said...

Four days to go, and still no clue about what the "sweet surprise" is... God, they are good at keeping a secret, lol... I think at least the program coordinators in every center must know by now what the Sweet Surprise is about...

Pp

Anonymous said...

The single biggest reason I have to doubt GM will show up for the "sweet surprise" is that they haven't ADVERTISED it as GM being included in the program.

Think about it.

Which would maximize the foundation's cash inflow better? To have a program where GM shows up but keep it secret? Or to have a program where GM shows up and it is announced to the world?

Which scenario is likely to bring more $$ into the foundation's (and thus GM's personal) coffers?

Since no announcement has been made about her being there live, either in person or on live satellite video feed, I don't think she'll be part of any live program.

What seems more reasonably likely to me is a pre-recorded video of her giving a short set of statements, or short message, or announcement about her future plans, or her chanting some short bhajan.

Do I think it involves her in some way? Yes. Do I think she'll actually be present in person or live video-feed? No.

Just a guess. But it seems logical to me. Announcing her actual presence would set so many Guru-starved sheeples into a tizzy that the money intake would be FAR greater if they announced her actual presence, instead of being as coy as they are.

Anonymous said...

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